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Past discussion from 2006 archived to: Talk:Monsters/Archive_2006


Isn't subrace the proper spelling and one word. This is I have seen it written almost everywhere and not as sub-race, even d&d books and articles use wording "subrace". Just like subtype is one word. Bladedge (ContributionsMessage) 12:47, March 2, 2013 (EST)

From a quick google search, it seems to me that the two words, sub-race and subrace can be used interchangeably. It may be that subrace is the more common usage, but by no means is sub-race incorrect. Hyphens are used to combine two separate words to form a compound word, but they are also commonly used with some prefixes (like sub-), see link. It seems that the use of hyphens in some cases is just a matter of preference rather than rule. That said, I really could care less if people on this wiki want to change sub-race to subrace as a rule. I simply chose a word that made sense to me and ran with it. Not being at all familiar with PnP, I was not aware of any preference for the word subrace there. You'll really have to talk to Tech about this if you want it changed though, since sub-race is now built into the monster infobox template.

I hope you don't mind that I moved your post to the talk page, but I thought it was more appropriate here than on a well traveled content page. I certainly meant no offense by moving it, let me know if I have broken wikiquette here.

Susalona (ContributionsMessage) 15:10, March 12, 2013 (EDT)
  • No one ever poked me about this, I guess it wasn't that important? For the record, my en-us spell-checker marks subrace as wrong and sub-race as correct. That is the most likely reason for the hyphenated version being used. ShoeMaker (Contributions Message) 18:36, February 12, 2014 (EST)


Would it be useful to add a column indicating whether the type is susceptible to critical hits? Thearcher (ContributionsMessage) 09:22, August 30, 2013 (EDT)

The place for that info would be on the race/sub-race special qualities section. Since U14, however, immunity to sneak attack damage and fortification are two separete conditions on monster stats. When in doubt, just add it as fortification. Nibelung (ContributionsMessage) 14:45, August 31, 2013 (EDT)

Sub-race criteria[edit]

I've read about the inception of monster classification by sub-race here (happened before I started editing), but I'm not sure about the following issue.

What are the criteria for defining a sub-race?

Case in point: I believe there should be a sub-race category for Firebrand gnolls. Many I recognize by their name ("Firebrand <something>"). Others I recognize because they have the same fur pattern as Firebrands. Others because they are surrounded by Firebrands. Others yet because they dwell in the Firebrand Mines.

In other words, I'm partially relying on my own editor's judgment (which seems like a good starting point).

Am I missing anything else? Aldyron (ContributionsMessage) 16:20, February 12, 2014 (EST)

My criteria for creating a sub-race category is one or more of the following:
  • The creature should be very different from others of the same race (Like devils and demons: Mariliths and Hezrous are both demons, but have very few similarities)
  • The creature should have some unique qualities compared to their base race (Like Blackbones and frostmarrows are different from common skeletons)
  • The creature should have some unique AI compared to the others of the same race, to be worthy of a single page for themselves, and yet be common enough in a large variety of monsters (Like Black Widow spiders have a "ranged" AI and unique visual)
  • The creature acts and looks like the base race, but have a big difference lore-wise, and have some kind of visual clue that allow people to diferentiate it from the base race (Like Inspireds: visually equal all other humans, except if you have True Seeing)
  • Above all, there should be enough creatures of that variety to be worthy a sub-category for that. The Devourer of Dreams used to have a unique sub-race page, but he is the only monster with that sub-race. So, it is basically a unique Quori, and not a special type of quori sub-race, unless we get a second quori like him in a future update.

In your example, if you can gather all firebrand gnolls, and find a link between all of them, I think they deserve their own sub-race category. If the difference is only in name or fur color, they are tribes, not sub-race. Just like we don't sub-race the Tunnelworm/Gnashtooth kobolds or the Arzag-Khor/Cloven-Jaw hobgoblins.

Nibelung (ContributionsMessage) 18:07, February 16, 2014 (EST)

Update for future reference: done.

Results are in Firebrand Gnoll sub-race.

While researching that, I also found out enough to compile Windlasher Gnoll sub-race and Fiendish Gnoll sub-race monsters (this last one not yet written down on its own page, I took a break to write this post).

Now I really know how gaining some ranks in Knowledge (Local)[PnP] must feel (including the scars and burns). :-)) Aldyron (ContributionsMessage) 15:58, April 20, 2014 (EDT)