Template talk:Journal entry

Deployment of the new template

Doesn't look like this template is done or ready to be deployed yet. I see a few issues with it.

1. None of the pages it was initially deployed on have XP, no need for the section in the meta infobox template
2. None of the pages it was initially deployed on have a map, no need for the section in the meta infobox template
3. |bestowal conditions= should be in a {{#forargs:bestowal condition|intCondition|strCondition|...}} looping structure.
4. Tutorial: How to advance your character suggests that |bestower= should also be in a {{#forargs:bestower|intBestower|strBestower|...}} looping structure.

Let's get those things sorted out and get a good variety of testcase pages (using {{Template testcase TOC}}) and have a good discussion about this on the DDO:AN/P before deploying. I'd like to see some serious conversation saying it's ready before trying to push it again. Thanks.  👟 ShoeMaker (Contribs • Message • Email) 👟 10:14, March 8, 2018 (EST)

• Sure, I'll start a discussion in the AN.
  1. Xp is there to accomodate Refugee_Toll and other missions that do award some xp.
  2. Refugee Toll has a map. Also, if someone wishes to add a map, the structure is there. Plus, without the empty map, the infobox looks really small.
  3. I don't see a reason for bestowal conditions or bestower or npc to have a looping structure. In fact, if they had, it would not allow Tutorial:_How_to_advance_your_character to display that elegant numbered list AND the list description (which varies from quest to quest). The bestower is also not a simple link, but rather a description of the bestowers.⇒ Faltout (Contribs • Message • Email) 10:29, March 8, 2018 (EST)
  • P.S. I don't understand what this {{Template testcase TOC}} is. Name is not intuitive and has no documentation. ⇒ Faltout (Contribs • Message • Email) 10:37, March 8, 2018 (EST)

Looks good to me. Deals with non-critical content anyway. I don't see any reason why not use it. ⇒ Cru121 (Contribs • Message • Email) 12:54, March 8, 2018 (EST)

I vote to allow this template to be implemented. There are several journal entries that do award XP (Refugee Toll, Meridia, etc.), some that have maps (To Find a Witness: Archbishop Dryden), and the looping bestower seems unnecessary for the reasons Faltout pointed out. ⇒ Kkoliver (Contribs • Message • Email) 13:14, March 8, 2018 (EST)

• If there is no map, it should be omitted instead of showing Media:No Map.jpg which suggests that there should be a map but we don't have it yet. There needs to be looping structures for those two things, you can have them be ordered or unordered lists if you like. If there is no XP, hide that row in the box.  👟 ShoeMaker (Contribs • Message • Email) 👟 14:20, March 8, 2018 (EST)
  • Removed the map if it does not exist. Adjusted table width to compensate for the loss of the map. I disagree about the looping structures and disagree about XP not showing. My belief is that someone reading those pages would need to see at least one "N/A" to understand that the xp was not just forgotten, it's just that the quest doesn't have any. And if it doesn't have xp, it's not a shock favor or loot or other stuff is nowhere to be seen.
    But those are MY reasons. What are YOUR reasons for requesting those changes? ⇒ Faltout (Contribs • Message • Email) 15:02, March 8, 2018 (EST)
    • To be honest, I still don't see what this template offers that isn't already part of the main {{Quest}} template or couldn't be just as easily added. It's a duplication of an existing template and really doesn't need to exist. If it is to exist, it should be significantly different than the existing template. As far as looping structures for bestower and requirements, it is much simpler to offer a looping structure when calling information from a DPL query on a "list of" page than it is trying to explode, replace, and parse out the information from multiple queries and is much less resource intensive on the wiki itself (we've had enough wiki crashes lately because of this kind of thing). Showing **N/A** on an XP row simply means that the information is **Not Available** on the wiki - not that it doesn't exist. - if it doesn't exist, it should be hidden so it's not even a question.  👟 ShoeMaker (Contribs • Message • Email) 👟 01:10, March 9, 2018 (EST)
• What this template offers is a very easy distinction between quests that have most of the info that the {{Quest}} requires and those misfit journal entries that simply want to exist in the wiki in some form but have to adhere to the rules of the complicated template that is T:Quest. As I said here DDO_wiki:Administrators'_noticeboard/Projects#T:Journal_entry and here Talk:To_Help_Ursa and here Template_talk:Quest#Bestower, there are various problems that arise with the use of the {{Quest}} template. Let me address those in the form of questions:
  1. To Help Linus has a level of 1 and belongs to Level 1 quests  and Compendium:Level 1 quests . Is it really level 1 though? Did you find that info somewhere ingame? Can someone that is level 10 not get that quest or does he have penalties for completing that quest over level? And what about the Risia festival? What level is that journal entry?
     • It's first accessible at level 1, just like any other level 1 quest. I don't hear you asking if someone who is level 25 not get into The Pit. Risia Festival is All levels. There doesn't "have" to be a level requirement for a quest to be a quest.  👟 ShoeMaker (Contribs • Message • Email) 👟 12:05, March 9, 2018 (EST)
  2. To Help Linus has Heroic XP: N/A and Epic XP: N/A. Like you said above, this doesn't mean that xp doesn't exist. It means that the xp is not available at the wiki right now. So what exactly is the xp value that indicates that XP "doesn't exist"? Is there anywhere on the wiki or did you just come up with that? Btw, before you go erasing every N/A from the wiki, Not Available does not necessarily imply "Not Available on the wiki" rather than "Not Available in this quest".
     • I already explained this and have no intentions on doing it again. You are correct, the rest of the quest pages shouldn't have N/A there either. I'll fix it when I have more time.  👟 ShoeMaker (Contribs • Message • Email) 👟 12:05, March 9, 2018 (EST)
  3. To Help Linus has a duration of "Short" and belongs to Category:Short quests. Where did you get that information?
     • You'd have to ask the person who added that information.  👟 ShoeMaker (Contribs • Message • Email) 👟 12:05, March 9, 2018 (EST)
  4. To Help Linus says it's free to play and belongs to Free to Play quests  and appears in Guide to Free to Play as one of the "Currently there are 89 free to play quests in game (Including The Grotto which gives 0 Favor)" free quests that will help a new free player understand where to get favor. Do they actually belong there? Are they really part of the guide to free to play?
     • Yes, I believe they belong in Free to Play quests . I have no issue with them being removed from Guide to Free to Play. This can be done however is best appropriate to do that. How are they on that page? Are they manually typed in? Are they included automatically via a call to Help:Extension:NCL or a DPL query? If the first, then all that should be stripped out and replaced with a DPL query. If the latter, then a DPL query is easy enough to adjust to trim those out.  👟 ShoeMaker (Contribs • Message • Email) 👟 12:05, March 9, 2018 (EST)
  5. Tutorial: How to advance your character has several bestowers and several NPCs. {{Quest}} template has left the bestower parameter unlinked and has the npc parameter linked. Beside the obvious inconsistency (which leads to editor confusion), the only quests that break from this inconsistency are those tutorial quests that nobody cares about.
     • I believe that both bestowers and NPCs should be linked if not already and that there should be a looping structure there to accommodate that in the best possible way. If "nobody cares about" these tutorial quests, maybe we don't need pages for them on the wiki in the first place.  👟 ShoeMaker (Contribs • Message • Email) 👟 12:05, March 9, 2018 (EST)
  6. To Help Linus says (in big red letters) "No Monsters defined for this quest". Does this quest really have monsters? Does a simple journal entry with a description of 1 sentence need a Category:Monsters in To Help Linus with the word "None" in it only to make that big red warning go away?
     • Then use the already existing |monsters= in {{Quest}} to make that error message go away like diff 379520.  👟 ShoeMaker (Contribs • Message • Email) 👟 12:05, March 9, 2018 (EST)
• You say those are "just as easily" added to T:Quest. I'm sure with a lot of work and addition of parameters you can make those quests look exactly the same as they do with T:Journal entry. And if I combine {{Quest}} and {{Named item}} parameters and add a flag to check for which is which, I can combine those 2 templates into 1. And so on and so on until this wiki has only 1 huge template. My point being that the Quest template is cluttered as it is and barely usable. Add some more to it and you'll start breaking things and making the parameter understanding of editors even more of a pain. Finally, adding this stuff would need ALL the quests to be updated again. Last update to the template about a year ago left most of the quests with a red warning that they need updating. You really think that's they way to go here?
• Looping structures and DPL. Some stuff need to be in looping sturctures. Some other don't. I'm not sure what you're trying to do, but I really don't see why you would want to display bestowers, NPCs and bestowal conditions in tables. Those fields are not standardized and as such they would be too diverse to make any informative table. Just like they don't make an informative table in Guide to Free to Play.

I feel like I've said all I need to say. Like Cru said, this template deals with non-critical content and its purpose is to get it out of the way of critical content. I still don't see why the resistance. All I see are dictates that are not necessarily true. Especially when stuff already in the wiki directly contradict what you're saying here. ⇒ Faltout (Contribs • Message • Email) 02:56, March 9, 2018 (EST)

• I've replied to most of your concerns in-line.  👟 ShoeMaker (Contribs • Message • Email) 👟 12:05, March 9, 2018 (EST)
  • Wow, you're really going out of your way to prove me wrong. You're even contradicting yourself (not long ago in the Quest template discussion you replied to me that bestower should be left unlinked). Anyway, I'm sure you'll find a way to explain your reasons with more "How things should be" dictates.
    It seems we are at an impass. I believe we both explained our sides and we don't seem to be reaching a conclusion. How do we resolve this? The way I see it, 3 people including me are fine with the template as it is and 1 is against. Do we need more votes to make this happen? If yes, where do I put this to make it more visible? And how long is this gonna take cause I have another project waiting for this to be resolved. Thanks. ⇒ Faltout (Contribs • Message • Email) 17:45, March 9, 2018 (EST)
    • Bump. Been a week. No more people have agreed or disagreed. Leaving this one week more and then I'll apply the template.⇒ Faltout (Contribs • Message • Email) 13:08, March 17, 2018 (EDT)