Talk:Anointed Cold Iron Weapon

Table template

I'm working on the following table, please feel free to add your observations. Values can be found by "hovering" the weapon in your inventory (not while it is equipped, as more modifiers would apply). I'll publish it when it's complete:

Anointed Cold Iron Weapon		Equips to	Proficiency	Damage Type	Base dmg.	Damage	Critical Profile	Base Value
	Bastard sword	Main Hand, Off Hand	Exotic (Attack penalty -4)	Slash, Cold Iron				130pp
	Dwarven Waraxe
	Greatsword	Main Hand (two-handed)	Martial	Slash, Cold Iron	7.70	(2-12) [2d6] +0	19-20 / x2	130pp
	Heavy Picks
	Khopesh	Main Hand, Off Hand	Exotic	Slash, Cold Iron	5.40	(1-8) [1d8] +0	19-20 / x3	130pp
	Longsword
	Maul
	Rapier
	Scimitar
	Shortsword
	Warhammer

--HawkFest (Contributions • Message) 13:53, August 7, 2014 (EDT)

• There is nothing special about Anointed Cold Iron Weapons. They have the same profile as a basic weapon with the addition of the Cold IronCold Iron: This iron mined deep underground, known for its effectiveness against fey creatures, is forged at a lower temperature to preserve its delicate properties. When combined with Good damage types, Cold Iron weapons are able to overcome the damage reduction of most Demons like Fire Reavers or Flesh Renders. See Monster DR and weaknesses for specifics. damage type. Therefore, this table is unnecessary. — Zav (C·T·E) 18:22, August 7, 2014 (EDT)

Your "therefore" doesn't even consider an iota of a potential reader, therefore it's more than disputable, not to mention the evidence. Bah ok here's the evidence... The end goal of a good documentation isn't to compress the information as much as possible so that nothing gets repeated twice+ (come on I shouldn't have to explain this). This would be like targeting an end-reader who would be some search-bot reader, not a human being, therefore it's highly inefficient, inappropriate and of bad practice for presenting such type of data : a numerical page does not consume as much as a paper page, the paradigms are different. The end goal of a documentation is to offer the most efficient and logical way for a reader to get to the pertinent information whatever the context of such consultation. In our case, allowing the reader to have a rapid tabular overview of main characteristics between weapons (or whatever such specific type of item), also serving as a comparison table instead of obliging your poor readers to browse pages after pages of similar data, is a much more efficient and comprehensible way to present any such information. Of course it contains the same data as this pile of pages you're referring to (excl. Cold Iron material), apart the fact those pages offer much more info than what's in the table. Which is why they are linked from within the table if you haven't noticed, in case the reader needs more details about this or that weapon..

And this, is a basic technique in designing sound and efficient reference documentation, amongst many others. TABLES, there's no table on this Wiki it's so ridiculous when considering all those places where a table instead of a myriad of pages would have suffice and make things more clear for your readers! What's even more weird, is the fact that you don't even seem to know about such simple and basic notion, in spite of the "All-Knowingly" tone you use in your reply (I tried to see something constructive but I couldn't).

Some times ago while looking up the Editing help, I've fumbled on Wiki techniques for embedding such table templates with reusable data on multiple Web pages via inclusions (an economy of resources server side), however in the little time I had for looking it up I haven't found specific information yet. If someone has a link, that would allow for a better integration.

--HawkFest (Contributions • Message) 19:16, August 7, 2014 (EDT)

Sorry, but this table is useless AND not universally valid (for example the +7 STR modifier is valid for your character only) AND it can confuse the reader (who might think that Holy Sword would turn his/her weapon into this). Anyway, here are some links to interesting wiki stuff. Good luck with your future DDOwiki projects, but you should really discontinue this one. --Cru121 (Contributions • Message) 00:14, August 8, 2014 (EDT)

I don't think the principle of listing objects of similar data/type in a concise table, is useless (which was the point of the debate). Else, please explain why, since all studies, examples and applications since decades (if not centuries) have shown the opposite? It's not my personal opinion, it's a fact, whether or not we're sorry about it doesn't change anything.

However thanks for your input, indeed THIS particular table shows some Mod values and as such is useless!... I should've used the data from all those Wiki pages instead of in-game "hovering" (thinking that what's shown in a vendor's menu is the same for everybody, in other words assuming by pure logics - though the cynical could ask "who's logic"..). I'm a newb with this game but not with documentation : after much frustration while looking up for specific but basic information that should be more accessible (when not absent while browsing a circular documentation like in a mouse-wheel), I've chosen to do something about it instead of whining about it.

There's already an excellent table for weapons, here (using itself a template data. It could even be enhanced with colors or such for grouping by dmg type, handedness, proficiency/class specifics, and subdivided for each subcategory wiki page showing the same incomplete listing obliging into inefficient and useless circular browsing). Let's face it, maybe that he problem/limitation comes from the Wiki structure in itself (that would be a good reason), along which the results of the search engine could be formulated+listed? I mean, all listings are shown on a category page, and maybe such category page "template" doesn't allow for any tabular organization using any other template data than pages labels/links that have been marked with some category label? Would there be a way around this, or it doesn't have anything to do?... --HawkFest (Contributions • Message) 13:41, August 8, 2014 (EDT)

@explain why listing objects is useless

In this particular case, we are talking about a spell component, which is consumed during casting of a spell, to create a spell effect. The most important information that a reader needs is: what spell, what class, what level, where to buy. As this component is actually a bunch of components, we list them all.

In theory, we could create this big table of all attributes that the anointed weapons have, or a separate subpage for each weapon type... but we're lazy, and very few readers would be interested in this information, if they come looking for info about Holy Sword components. To make a real world example, in a recipe, when you have a table of ingredients, you usually don't need to include a column about which country is the leading producer of the ingredient or how many of these could your grandmother slice within a minute.

There is some information that would be interesting to include, imho:

• base price (not the price for which you purchase, that's affected by Haggle, the price listed on item)
• stacking in inventory (if I buy 100 greatswords, do they stack in inventory)? what's the max stack, if any
• some tip that in a pinch, the spell components can be used as weapons (can they? I never tried), they have +0 enh.bonus and perform the same as basic weapons (link table), except they break cold iron DR (but not magic DR)
• cannith crafting: can they be crafted upon?

However, the developers have mentioned that the spell Holy Sword will be changed in Update 23, so any information that we add now might be obsolete in 2-3 months. --Cru121 (Contributions • Message) 00:17, August 9, 2014 (EDT)

LOL! Someone has added the table I've linked in my previous message, on Basic weapons page, which was the main idea (mission accomplished) : to have a table, instead of being obliged to browse pages and pages for common comparative data (that table wasn't there when I was mentioning the lack of such table on other category pages of this Wiki)! I haven't put that code myself since I wanted a feedback about the idea, being newb with DDO (thus turning down onto this "remote" talk page to show the idea)... So, what was your point? A simple table would have visually answered all your questions, right away : as opposed to your perception, readers get confused when nothing gives a clue (or a vague one) about the reality of these objects : these are weapons, and as a reader I would've liked to have had a table right away (if not via a link as it is now lately) for fast comparison before acquiring the correct anointed weapon for my paladin's Holy Weapon spell (for a newb who by definition can't play any guessing game, this information is important when trying to efficiently look up for such info. while in-game). ;-)

Indeed, a simple table showing the differences with basic weapons like material and pricing (while also showing the most basic stats like crit. dmg and proficiency), would've rapidly and efficiently answered all your questions and more, given the relevant data (which is not the case in the above table):

• This particular table above was only a draft : I used this page as it was IMHO the least relevant one for such table (being newb, I've reduced the risk/impact compared to a category page). I've only added on the main page the images I've captured in-game. The goal was for designing a generic (basic weapons) and splittable table template (given the category or page on which it was referred). Read the above discussion. Of course, after Cru121's comment I verified some things and indeed this particular table is irrelevant which is why it has begun here, it'll stay here and it will eventually disappear if not changed for something else, don't worry (notice that I haven't update it, it's not worth the effort as it is and the data it involves).
• These are weapons indeed, and thus can be used as such (a reason why you can see modified values in the STR column btw). Being weapons (not ingredients), they stack the same way other weapons do. The term "ingredient" is perceived as in some cooking recipe, but for a craftsman, blacksmith or spell caster, it's not an "ingredient", it's the main object/target of the work/spell. I guess that the term is only used to differentiate from the fact that it's not craftable via the usual crafting stations (I've tried it): in our case it's via a spell, and to simplify things even more (I wonder for whom actually), it's shown as being a spell ingredient. But it's not an ingredient used for imbuing some property allowing a specific spell to be casted: it is the actual object of the crafting, the actual object upon which you cast a spell of Holy Weapon. Exposing it as an ingredient and in the same format as any other ingredient is actually confusing for the reader, which is reflected by your own questions about this.
• Anyways, as I said mission accomplished :)
• I'm currently in-game to add base prices on the main page. EDIT : simple, they all have the same base price of 130pp; I've modified the above table to illustrate what I wrote above (a simple table which answers at 1st glance reader's confusion between ingredient vs weapon and other specific details), but of course it's not meant for the main page, it's only illustrative of the idea.

--HawkFest (Contributions • Message) 19:43, August 14, 2014 (EDT)

Removing the plural form.

For example, it's not "all bastard swords around including those with different enhancements/named/etc.", it's one type : "the" base Bastard Sword, more over uniquely anointed and crafted with cold iron. Another example is this basic weapons table where the singular form is used. One could evoke the fact that such weapon could have different enchantments... But it's not the case with this page as we're also talking about one spell for one result (The Holy Sword enchantment), involving a unique weapon which diverge from the base one in these three points: it can't be used at any crafting station; it is of cold iron and anointed; it can be transformed into a ravaging Holy Weapon, by casting a specific spell at it so as to imbue the Holy Weapon properties. --HawkFest (Contributions • Message) 21:37, August 14, 2014 (EDT)

Historic tag

Should be added a "Historic" at the top of this page? Sforza (Contributions • Message) 02:06, October 16, 2014 (EDT)

• I would say no {{History}}, since they are still available for purchase even though they are no longer used as a spell component. — Zav (C·T·E) 06:59, October 16, 2014 (EDT)
• {{ History | type=component | plural=0 | NC=1 }} wouldn't be inappropriate. No-one is going to want to use them as just weapons...

	History
	This page is about a material component that no longer has use in-game.
	If you can verify that the material component still is required to cast the spell, please edit this page and remove this template.

Just my opinion though. ShoeMaker (Contributions • Message) 10:54, October 16, 2014 (EDT)