User talk:Faltout

House K Guild Hireling Vendors
Hi Faltout. I have been meandering around and filling in NPC pages, and have wandered into House K. I see you are working on Hireling vendor and wanted to know if it is OK for me to use the NPC template to add those into your page? &rArr; meander (Contribs • Message • Email ) 11:16, July 4, 2018 (EDT)
 * I'm not working on the Hireling vendor page. I just corrected the page naming. Do your stuff :P &rArr; Faltout (Contribs • &uArr; top &uArr; • Email ) 11:18, July 4, 2018 (EDT)

parameters that don't exist
Stop adding parameters that don't exist to live pages. &#x1f45f;&thinsp;ShoeMaker (Contribs&thinsp;•&thinsp;Message&thinsp;•&thinsp;Email )&thinsp;&#x1f45f; 13:09, July 20, 2018 (EDT)
 * Is there a better place to add this information? &rArr; Faltout (Contribs • &uArr; top &uArr; • Email ) 13:12, July 20, 2018 (EDT)
 * misc comes to mind. Alternatively, you could create the parameters in the appropriate sandbox(es) with testcase(s) and request the changes be made by an admin once everything is properly tested and verified and there has been an appropriate discussion on the topic.  Yes, this may take awhile, but it's not been an issue for the last decade and it won't hurt anything if it takes a few months to implement.  &#x1f45f;&thinsp;ShoeMaker (Contribs&thinsp;•&thinsp;Message&thinsp;•&thinsp;Email )&thinsp;&#x1f45f; 13:33, July 20, 2018 (EDT)
 * Well, changing how a protected template works without being an admin hasn't worked for a loooooong time, so misc it is. I'll create a subpage and transclude it. &rArr; Faltout (Contribs • &uArr; top &uArr; • Email ) 13:54, July 20, 2018 (EDT)
 * Create a subpage for what? &#x1f45f;&thinsp;ShoeMaker (Contribs&thinsp;•&thinsp;Message&thinsp;•&thinsp;Email )&thinsp;&#x1f45f; 15:10, July 20, 2018 (EDT)
 * Ummmmm, the large amount of journal text? (before, mid, after completion) &rArr; Faltout (Contribs • &uArr; top &uArr; • Email ) 16:50, July 20, 2018 (EDT)
 * Why does that need a subpage? The Pit and The Shroud have fairly large walk-through sections and don't use subpages for them.  &#x1f45f;&thinsp;ShoeMaker (Contribs&thinsp;•&thinsp;Message&thinsp;•&thinsp;Email )&thinsp;&#x1f45f; 17:26, July 20, 2018 (EDT)

Personal attacks
Please do not other editors, as you did  at Re-order of "Sells"?. Comment on content, not on contributors. Personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Please and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. &#x1f45f;&thinsp;ShoeMaker (Contribs&thinsp;•&thinsp;Message&thinsp;•&thinsp;Email )&thinsp;&#x1f45f; 08:22, October 19, 2018 (EDT)
 * Hi, the link you provided was definitely not an attack as it comments on "content" and not on contributors. It is perhaps a coincidence that your edits on the main templates are the ones that break the wiki or the ones I have an issue with. Or perhaps it is because you are one the only one making chances to how the templates work. In any case, your edits are leaving broken pages behind and mentioning that they are "your" edits and not someone's edits is a convenient grouping of edits. &rArr; Faltout (Contribs • &uArr; top &uArr; • Email ) 20:26, October 19, 2018 (EDT)

Challenges ~are~ Free to Play
Hey - noticed that back in May you took it upon yourself to change all challenge pages from "Yes" to "No" re Free-to-Play status. Challenges are not barred from F2P accounts, as any can be played via Daily Tokens, so are not (technically) Pay-to-Play. They arguably fall into a bit of a middle ground, I'll admit, but if a F2P player can play them, then they are F2P, even if they are not "unlimited access" as VIP's enjoy. As is, it's inaccurate and a disservice to F2P players to imply otherwise. Would you mind going back and reverting those, so no one else has to? (I fixed one before realizing the other 2 dozen were now also all wrong.) Thanks. &rArr; C-Hound (Contribs • Message • Email ) 20:54, November 17, 2018 (EST) Challenges are F2P via challenge tokens. Challenge token system in entirely contained within the game, unlike DDO Points where you need to open a browser based window to spend the points in a store. If you don't have to go to the DDP store to play the content, it's free to play. &#x1f45f;&thinsp;ShoeMaker (Contribs&thinsp;•&thinsp;Message&thinsp;•&thinsp;Email )&thinsp;&#x1f45f; 11:26, November 18, 2018 (EST)
 * In the same manner, the whole game would be classified as free-to-play because you can purchase it with favor-earned DDO Points. Wherever you look in the wiki, when challenges are mentioned, there is a note saying "You can play challenges with free tokens". This note is in each challenge page and in each patron page. If a free player hasn't collected tokens, they can't play the challenges. Classifying the challenges as "free" misinforms the free players of their limitations. &rArr; Faltout (Contribs • &uArr; top &uArr; • Email ) 07:15, November 18, 2018 (EST)
 * We recently had this discussion with a guildmate who wanted to run a weekly challenge party with us, but we needed to be clear that he needed to log in every day of the week to get enough tokens built up. It would be misleading to claim in the wiki that one can just walk-up and run them. &rArr; meander (Contribs • Message • Email ) 09:50, November 18, 2018 (EST)
 * I see what you mean. That explains a good boundary line between what is/isn't free to play, easily interpreted. I can still see misunderstandings (walk-up and go) happening (unavoidable), but this definition is at least clear.  Free To Play deserves this explanation.   &rArr; meander (Contribs • Message • Email ) 12:30, November 18, 2018 (EST)
 * This is a totally arbitrary definition of free-to-play and also totally unnecessary. The "Free-to-play" tag is meant to tell a wiki reader that they can access this content without restrictions. As I said above, the challenges cannot be accessed without first spending some time to collect tokens, while someone that owns the content has unlimited access. Thus the challenges need to show that they do not offer unrestricted access. &rArr; Faltout (Contribs • &uArr; top &uArr; • Email ) 12:59, November 18, 2018 (EST)
 * By your definition, nothing is free to play because no quest that isn't part of an adventure pack can be accessed without first spending some time to collect the quest from the quest giver. Challenges do offer unrestricted access, you just need to pick up the "flagging" requirement of collecting a token.  If you do it as part of your daily play routine (there are multiple challenge token givers), you never have to wait to get more tokens to play again.  The line for free to play is content you don't have to go to the DDO Store for.  Feel free to add that to any page that needs it, I had thought it was already in all the needed places.  &#x1f45f;&thinsp;ShoeMaker (Contribs&thinsp;•&thinsp;Message&thinsp;•&thinsp;Email )&thinsp;&#x1f45f; 14:09, November 19, 2018 (EST)
 * That's certainly a nice strawman argument you have there. Except premium players also have to spend some time to collect the quest from the quest giver. Thus, this is not a limiting factor that can be mitigated by paying money. &rArr; Faltout (Contribs • &uArr; top &uArr; • Email ) 15:29, November 19, 2018 (EST)

DDO:AN/POI
If you complete a task listed on DDO wiki:Administrators' noticeboard/PoI, please remove it from the list. Thanks. &rArr; DDOstream (Contribs • Message • Email ) 11:05, December 5, 2018 (EST)
 * The POI wasn't mine to remove (I believe it said "ShoeMaker") and I am not required to know which pages are part of projects listed in the Administrator's Noticeboard or any other project list in some user page and maintain those lists. If the original poster does not maintain the lists or there are no dedicated users to track and maintain the lists, then the lists are pretty much useless and can be safely ignored. &rArr; Faltout (Contribs • &uArr; top &uArr; • Email ) 11:15, December 5, 2018 (EST)
 * So you worked on a WiP/project with someone else's name on it without getting approval from the person first or completing the project fully? Hmm.  I don't think that is acceptable and is cause for a topic ban on templates.  Please don't edit any more templates until a consensus can be reached saying it is okay for you to do so again, or you'll be blocked from the wiki until we can find a consensus on it.  Thanks.  &rArr; DDOstream (Contribs • Message • Email ) 11:58, December 5, 2018 (EST)
 * No, I saw a discussion about the template started by an IP and and I saw a vote. I saw that all this was 1 year+ ago (which meant abandoned by anyone that meant to make the changes) and I made the changes that had the most votes. This wasn't a project with anyone's name on it so I didn't need approval to work on it. Even if it was a project with someone's name on it, I would still be able to make changes to it and discuss later if there was an objection since there is no policy or guideline that prevents editing other's projects. I find your reactions and attitude inappropriate given that there are no policies or guidelines to back most of your claims, you seem to make rules on the fly, you can't seem to understand things that other people say and you nitpick words out of posts or alter them to suit you (like for example what I said above). The wiki is not yours to rule and you certainly seem to break templates more often than any other template editor (and then failing to admit the mistakes even when shown examples; you fix the single example and pretend there aren't any others). &rArr; Faltout (Contribs • &uArr; top &uArr; • Email ) 16:14, December 5, 2018 (EST)
 * Talking in circles much? Here... Let me quote you back to yourself, "The POI wasn't mine to remove (I believe it said "ShoeMaker")".  Also, where is there anything that says anything 1+ years ago is abandoned?  I don't remember seeing that on wiki at all.  If you point me at things broken, I'm happy to fix them.   I can't fix issues when I don't know they exist.  Don't assume anything is abandoned unless none of the contributors to the project have been active for a substantial amount of time.  Ask first or don't edit it.   &#x1f45f;&thinsp;ShoeMaker (Contribs&thinsp;•&thinsp;Message&thinsp;•&thinsp;Email )&thinsp;&#x1f45f; 01:31, December 6, 2018 (EST)

Oy, thanks!
Just realized you fixed it. thanks! &rArr; meander (Contribs • Message • Email ) 15:54, September 14, 2019 (EDT)

Saga Sorting
Thanks for getting that right - I tried a dozen configurations and just couldn't figure it out. Fwiw, the names sorted before I tightened it up, I just couldn't figure out that part after I changed the sorting buttons. :/ &rArr; C-Hound (Contribs • Message • Email ) 12:42, October 25, 2019 (EDT)

"bot mess"
Yes, I was aware the bot tagged some pages with multiple release Update ##'s, but since there's still  to run through with the bot, I figured I'd wait until I had that category cleaned up a little more before running through and fixing the duplicate taggings (caused by the fact that I build the list of Item: links on the "Update ## named items" pages, which includes all of the Named Red Augments for any item that can use one). I had to take a break from it because the wiki 503ed for half the day. I was building the Category:Update ## named items categories, and I'm sure the wiki just crashed being unable to keep up with all the new DPL queries caused by that. I'm looking forward to the new, updated server next week. Hoping it'll reduce DPL caused crashes. &#x1f45f;&thinsp;ShoeMaker (Contribs&thinsp;•&thinsp;Message&thinsp;•&thinsp;Email )&thinsp;&#x1f45f; 18:45, November 21, 2019 (EST)
 * I figured you did something like that. Except you can't rely on "Links on the Update ## named items pages" because some of those pages are for the update to an already existing item or just referencing the item for other reasons (like saying "This item is getting a fix"). This is not the first time you've mass made erroneous edits. Some years ago, Kobold Sneak went and deleted a bunch of CRs from monster pages. I accidentally stumbled upon such errors while looking at the history of some monsters. I think you should never make mass edits again. You are not thinking things through and then you don't clean up after. &rArr; Faltout (Contribs • &uArr; top &uArr; • Email ) 18:51, November 21, 2019 (EST)
 * Those "for the update to an already existing item" will actually be getting those update release Update ##'s too as a separate parameter, TBD. I'm thinking revamped possibly, so they can also be listed in the Update ## for the revamping.  Like I said, there's no point in "cleaning up" if the mess isn't done being made.  &#x1f45f;&thinsp;ShoeMaker (Contribs&thinsp;•&thinsp;Message&thinsp;•&thinsp;Email )&thinsp;&#x1f45f; 18:57, November 21, 2019 (EST)
 * Why, you plan on doing more mass bot edits like that? The items listed on the update pages were the easy to figure out. You plan on doing something similar for the items that are harder to figure out? I would really love to remove the ability to have bots in this wiki if this is how you abuse them. I give up once again. I gave up trying to correct the CR removals from the monsters, I gave up trying to update the quests that "needed their parameters updated", I gave up when you messed up every NPC's categories by making false assumptions. I guess I should send an e-mail to Xevo about all of this and call it a day. &rArr; Faltout (Contribs • &uArr; top &uArr; • Email ) 19:05, November 21, 2019 (EST)
 * Yes, I'm half way through. I've already re-fixed all of the pages that you fixed.  I'm not aware of any CR removals, perhaps it was someone else - all the administrators have access to, I'm not the only one who uses or has used the account.  I'm still slowly going through and updating quests.  NPC's still needs work, but I've been working on the project too.  Yes, it's slow - but one person working on thousands of pages shouldn't be expected to have it done in a day.  &#x1f45f;&thinsp;ShoeMaker (Contribs&thinsp;•&thinsp;Message&thinsp;•&thinsp;Email )&thinsp;&#x1f45f; 19:10, November 21, 2019 (EST)

Spam
I see you blanking spam pages. They get lost that way and not properly deleted. Please instead use the {{subst:Spam|...ALL PAGE CONTENT...}} template instead so it'll probably get categorized for deletion. Thanks. &#x1f45f;&thinsp;ShoeMaker (Contribs&thinsp;•&thinsp;Message&thinsp;•&thinsp;Email )&thinsp;&#x1f45f; 18:16, November 26, 2019 (EST)

Changes on Quest List and Story Arc
Hi Faltout, it should be obvious that I'm working on story Arcs within the last weeks. And suddenly you change a categorization naming without checking the total impact. Also you introduce a new list template which is not user friendly and which I just saw the first time. Although it may be better than the "Quest list" template things like that should be synced &rArr; Corgrind (Contribs • Message • Email ) 11:52, April 14, 2021 (EDT)

And an additioanl note: Your list template has popups on each list value; something the Quest list template avoids and I thik for good reason &rArr; Corgrind (Contribs • Message • Email ) 11:59, April 14, 2021 (EDT)


 * I've been working on quest lists since 2018. I've made my intentions known early on in DDO wiki:Administrators' noticeboard/Projects and in Template talk:QTL. I created a working template and applied it to the Patron faction pages as well as the Level 1 quests pages. I only did those pages because those had a working categorization ( patron quests) and (Level quests). In order to apply the template to the adventure pack pages, story arc pages and area pages I needed a working categorization for those. That's why I requested a change in categorization in Template talk:Quest. However, the requested changes never went through because of lack of competent administration. Two years later, Technical_13 decided to create some lists for zones and adpacks so he made some questionable categorization changes and created the Quest list template (and also protected it) which does similar things to my template except worse (can't calculate favor, doesn't show useful columns). Now I'm still waiting for the categorization changes in the Quest template to be able to create a template for adventure pack pages, but you went and added categories via a different template for story arcs. I found this the perfect opportunity to chime in and prevent future categorization errors as well as continue applying the template I created 3 years ago. As for changing the "quest list" references, I went and changed what I could find (which were the shadowfell arcs). I'll do another pass to see what has been affected by a categorization change. If you can state the "good reason" for not having pop-ups, I can easily remove them from Quest table row meta. While my template may seem to be more difficult to use, it's advantages are that it is modular and thus versatile. It's also meant to be copy-pasted by editors and not as much used from scratch unless you're familiar with how DPL works. &rArr; Faltout (Contribs • &uArr; top &uArr; • Email ) 12:25, April 14, 2021 (EDT)

It seems that we generally have the same intention with slightly different approaches on some details. From my point of view it seems difficult to sort that out in a timely manner using this User Talk, so maybe we find a more direct method.

This are my points which may differ from yours:
 * I noticed your agenda on your userpage but the last change is from 2019 so I thought the project at lease vacant
 * I cannot completely follow your categorization issue, but it makes sense to have some "type" in the name.
 * My issue here is that I have a very varying amount of time to do things here, so if a crucial change needs actions from my side it may be delayed a bit
 * I would have preferred "ping" before you just "chimed in". I have a regular view on changes so we could have sorted that out without this upheaval
 * After thinking a bit I agree that your change makes sense; just lets delay that to next weekend, so I have time to check on side effects
 * I totally agree that necessary changes are not done and blocked by locking templates.
 * I miss a "trusted developer" group here which has access to all templates regardless of lock status
 * Story Arc template: I added the categorization here because often arcs are a sub group of an adventure pack and I had no cat available for the list. Also story arcs are very static, and after creating the specific template there are little changes to be expected. Any dynamic mcchanism here is a waste of time from my point of view.
 * Your quest list:
 * Popup: People (including me) tend to follow table lines with the mouse. And popups just hide content, especially here were popups are not delayed. And for the XP values these popups are really unnecessary because the table header describes the content. BTW: I created a Template T:XpcolorsNP some months ago which does the same as T:Xpcolors without popups (and a not so repetitive code)
 * It's discussable what columns are "usable" ;-) At least your list is quite wide even for my big screen.
 * I personally think that "Acquired in" (because the context of the list usually describes that clearly) and "Epic" (because the number of entries in "level" are quite clear) are quite obsolete. And I think that we near a point where the type "Legendary" has to be included
 * On the other hand I find "Bestows by" quite useful
 * Anyway your DPL template was just too invisible ;-) and I stand on my point that the design should be more discussed
 * I think the use of that DPL construct in a native page is not "standard editor" friendly. Unfortulatelly I think we cannot get Tech13 to unlock the Quest list template
 * I f I missed something just ask

Excuse the typos; I'm native german but I try my best &rArr; Corgrind (Contribs • Message • Email ) 13:35, April 14, 2021 (EDT)

&rArr; Faltout (Contribs • &uArr; top &uArr; • Email ) 14:34, April 14, 2021 (EDT)
 * 1) The categorization issue is that "The Vale of Twilight quests" refers to both quests from the adventure pack and quests acquired in the area. "House Jorasco quests"  suffers from the same issue. "The Ruins of Gianthold" story arc will have the same name as the area even though the quests are different. I'm fine with waiting till we reach a consensus as long as it has a time limit.
 * 2) I can definitely remove the popups.
 * 3) "Acquired in" column shows where the quest giver is located, which is definitely not obvious (The Devil's Gambit?). "Epic" allows the user to sort the quests by epic/heroic with other columns as secondary sorts (like "which epic quest has the most xp?" -> sort by xp -> sort by epic). This cannot be achieved by the level column if it contains both the heroic and epic level. If it's split in 2 columns (like I did in patron pages), then epic column becomes obsolete.
 * 4) As for "standard editor" friendly: I could certainly create a buffer template that was used like "Quest list" and called "DPL category table" underneath. However, the advantage of it being eye candy would mean that you wouldn't be able to use multiple categories or exclude categories or use a different presentation template or sort with a different column. So, since anyone can copy-paste the template and replace the categories, I wouldn't consider creating a buffer template. Cru121 said it in Template talk:QTL: "In general, these aren't templates that an average Joe has to use; it seems like once the pages are set up, all is going to work automatically. When a new adventure pack or patron is introduced, I assume that even the average Joe would be able to copy the short DPL call and replace category name in it."
 * Just a short thing, no more time now: There seems to be an issue with the "Bestowed by" column (see The Storm Horns) &rArr; Corgrind (Contribs • Message • Email ) 12:16, April 15, 2021 (EDT)
 * It gets the info from the bestower parameter which is missing in many of the quests. I was updating the bestowers but I ran into the issue of linking the bestower versus not linking it (as discussed in Template talk:Quest) and I stopped because I was annoyed. Nevertheless, if you see "Unknown" bestower, the quest needs the parameter filled. &rArr; Faltout (Contribs • &uArr; top &uArr; • Email ) 13:06, April 15, 2021 (EDT)