Talk:Item Namespace/Archive01

{{Post|1|ShoeMaker (Contributions &bull; Message) 09:25, April 11, 2012 (EDT)|How many times have you all complained about Category bleed for this or that.. Most of (99% by my observation) has come from using templates that were designed as {{PIC|Item description templates}} Category:Item description templates for use only on {{Named whatever... being used on loot pages or what have you that look great, but cause those loot pages to be categorized where they do not belong. Example Template:Stat is one of the biggest offenders; in this template I had made every attempt to prevent this bleed, and the best I could do up until the introduction of this namespace is:  {{#if:{{#pos:{{lc:{{PAGENAMEE}}}}|loot}}||{{#if:{{#pos:{{lc:{{PAGENAMEE}}}}|named}}||{{#if:{{#pos:{{lc:{{PAGENAMEE}}}}|reward}}||{{#if:{{#pos:{{lc:{{PAGENAMEE}}}}|named_items}}||{{#ifeq:{{lc:{{TALKSPACEE}}}}|{{lc:{{NAMESPACEE}}}}||{{#switch:{{lc:{{NAMESPACEE}}}}|category|file|forum|help|template|user=|#default= [[Category:{{ #ifeq:{{lc:{{{3}}}}}|exc| Exceptional ||}} {{#switch:{{lc:{{{1}}}}}


 * str|strength = Strength


 * dex|dexterity = Dexterity


 * con|constitution = Constitution


 * int|intelligence = Intelligence


 * wis|wisdom = Wisdom


 * cha|charisma = Charisma


 * ability = Ability


 * Stat (str, dex, con, int, wis, cha)

}} {{ #ifexpr:{{{2|0}}}< 0|{{#expr:0+{{{2|0}}}}}|+{{#expr:0+{{{2|0}}}}}}} items]] }}}}}}}}}}}}

This caught "most" of the bleed, but not all because of the way that transclusion works.. With the new namespace I/we will be able to go through the templates and add:  {{#ifeq:{{lc:{{NAMESPACE}}}}|item| [[Category:{{ #ifeq:{{lc:{{{3}}}}}|exc| Exceptional ||}} {{#switch:{{lc:{{{1}}}}} }} {{ #ifexpr:{{{2|0}}}< 0|{{#expr:0+{{{2|0}}}}}|+{{#expr:0+{{{2|0}}}}}}} items]] }}
 * str|strength = Strength
 * dex|dexterity = Dexterity
 * con|constitution = Constitution
 * int|intelligence = Intelligence
 * wis|wisdom = Wisdom
 * cha|charisma = Charisma
 * ability = Ability
 * Stat (str, dex, con, int, wis, cha)

This will catch ALL of the potential item bleed, because if the page is not in the item namespace, it doesn't get categorized. This will allow people to use Template:Stat to their discretion on loot pages and enchantment description pages to their hearts content and not place those things into Category:Ability +? where they do not belong. There are many enchantment templates that could and would be able to take GREAT advantage of this.

Furthermore, it would make it so that guy that is looking for all items with "Some Uber Enchantment" doesn't have to farm through 20 pages of "Some Uber Enchantment" description, "some quest" with "Some Uber Enchantment" loot, "some special event that can drop a "Some Uber Enchantment" potion.

Also, to answer Yoko's initial question, I currently feel that item is the only one that needs to be done where-as a great majority of the bleeding and issues comes/came from there. {{Face|cool}}}} {{post|0|Shade (Contributions &bull; Message) 10:56, April 11, 2012 (EDT)|

I'm against this. It's just yet another example of techs attempts to add complexity to things that should be as simple as possible. The pros just do not outweigh the cons for using namespaces in this manner. And yea, for such a massive change involving 2k+ pages, and nearly every other page on the site in some way too, you really should of discussed this with the majority of the active editors before diving in. Especially one like this which breaks our Naming policy, all changes to that should be discussed first.

Xevo's job is not to decide things like this. Here's here to help provide us the tools we need to get things done, so yea ofcorse hes not gona decline your request. It's the active editors that should decide major changing to the sites, and Xevo currently isnt one of them.

The cons just outweight any positive for the REAL users, that matter the most:

Cons:
 * Our category listings look horrible. Every item says "item:".. Treating the user like hes a moron that needs to be told every 0.0002millisecond that hes looking at items.. And this is something I put a lot of work in to simplify and clean up to look nice recently.
 * Adds a bunch of typing that should not be neccesarily.. Whenever we type out new items, we now would need to type Item:name, then pipe that crap out the name, more then doubling our worklolad there.. UGH.
 * Item pages already use a huge amount of transclusions. Having most of our links be a redirect {{=}} yet another transclusion. And the alternative of removing them would be worse - it would completely break searches, indexes and tons of other stuff.
 * Search will NOT work as smoothly. Clear evidence of this problem is available right now at turbines compendium. They use namespaces like crazy, so unless you hard-lock specify the type of article your searchign for, there search engine just plain doesnt work.
 * It will also break the nice DDO wiki:Firefox search plugin. I use that a lot, plus just typing in item names in the url bar works nice too as it is.. This will ruin that.
 * Reduces site uniformity. Just items get a namespace? What about quests? wilderness? challenges? etc.. Slipperly slope imo, soon enough we will have become the dreaded compendium we are meant to exist to be different from.
 * Another 2k +edits and site disruption when we decide it should be "Items" and not "Item".
 * Templates that use {{PAGENAME}} will look poor with the dumb item: suffix.

Pros:
 * You can use techs silly autocat templates disigned only for item pages, elsewhere. Maybe.
 * And even you can can - in many cases you should not. The most common place they get misused atm is in item indexes.. Item indexes tend to be long lists of items with short description players can quicly browse through. If we fill these with too many templates, the pages will get laggy and eventually break as we've seen happen on our Vaults of the Artificers loot page.
 * And being this is a change that reduces functionality for the users, but helps editors - it should have a low priority. We should work behind the scenes to improve the site, not in the face of it.

We need to make smart use of as few templates as possible, not destroy the sites structure in the name of using more pointless templates - we could easily achieve the same thing where we could want it with the simple longpopup template instead, and suffer a lot less performance issues.

So yea unless you get some support for this project tech, I dont recommend you proceeed. And from the discussion so far, no one seems to support it.

At the bare minimum you should of debugged this first before proceeding. The compendium at least doesn't have a huge mess in its categorys filled with namespace:article.. It has code to clip that in place. }} {{Post|2|ShoeMaker (Contributions &bull; Message) 11:48, April 11, 2012 (EDT)|Let's answer {{User|Shade|Shade's}} concerns.. Cons:
 * Our category listings look horrible. Every item says "item:".. Treating the user like hes a moron that needs to be told every 0.0002millisecond that hes looking at items.. And this is something I put a lot of work in to simplify and clean up to look nice recently.
 * I'll work on stripping the visual "Item:" namespace from the visible part of the C: structure. I find it a slight eyesore as-well, however, C: sorting is unaffected by it so other than the visual eyesore of it, there is no adverse effect.
 * Adds a bunch of typing that should not be neccesarily.. Whenever we type out new items, we now would need to type Item:name, then pipe that crap out the name, more then doubling our worklolad there.. UGH.
 * WRONG: I already thought that through. Simply use {{Item| }}, which coincidently is less work than including a link to a category on a page ( Category:
 * Item pages already use a huge amount of transclusions. Having most of our links be a redirect {{=}} yet another transclusion. And the alternative of removing them would be worse - it would completely break searches, indexes and tons of other stuff.
 * Transclusions are a normal part of a wiki. I do not see these tiny transclusions as being even slightly page breaking.
 * EDIT: Furthermore, I can offer the option to eliminate any additional transclusions by offering a C&P setup for {{subst:Item| in the edit toolbar at the bottom of the page (Done). Looks like Extension:CharInsert is installed now or getting there, just waiting on confirmation from Xevo.  At that point you'll just have to click a button and that part will be put in for you.
 * Search will NOT work as smoothly. Clear evidence of this problem is available right now at turbines compendium. They use namespaces like crazy, so unless you hard-lock specify the type of article your searchign for, there search engine just plain doesnt work.
 * Turbines compendium is not a fair comparison to DDOwiki.. The "Item:" namespace is included in the default search parameters, so unless you're implying that the users that visit this page are complete morons (Which according to your other posts, you do not), then they are not stupid enough to uncheck search Item: when they are looking for an item.
 * It will also break the nice DDO wiki:Firefox search plugin. I use that a lot, plus just typing in item names in the url bar works nice too as it is.. This will ruin that.
 * How exactly does it break the Firefox search? I use it constantly and it searches through Category:, DDO_wiki:, MediaWiki:, as-well-as *: without a care..
 * Reduces site uniformity. Just items get a namespace? What about quests? wilderness? challenges? etc.. Slipperly slope imo, soon enough we will have become the dreaded compendium we are meant to exist to be different from.
 * Items are pretty much the only thing that completely breaks template's ability to auto-cat and without that auto-cat you would have months of editing every item page placing them in all of the applicable categories.
 * Another 2k +edits and site disruption when we decide it should be "Items" and not "Item".
 * I originally suggested it should be Items: and Xevo set it to Item: Which is fine for me, each page is implicitly an item.  I see no reason to change it and if I had an issue with it, I would of had Xevo change it before starting to populate it.
 * EDIT: As another option, Xevo can simply set up "$wgNamespaceAliases" so that Items: {{=}} Item:
 * This leads me to wonder if he was to set up "$wgNamespaceAliases" to make Item: {{=}} *: would that have the same end result without requiring us to move and edit any pages? I have sent him an email and asking if we can test out that theory on the sister wiki that gets virtually no use except from bots and Xevo and my's attempts to remove said bot posts.
 * Templates that use {{PAGENAME}} will look poor with the dumb item: suffix.
 * {{PAGENAME}} is not {{FULLPAGENAME}} and the Item: prefix is not displayed.

Pros:
 * You can use techs silly autocat templates disigned only for item pages, elsewhere. Maybe.
 * Without those auto-cats you would have months of manually typing in on every page the 5-20 categories it belongs in.
 * And even you can can - in many cases you should not. The most common place they get misused atm is in item indexes.. Item indexes tend to be long lists of items with short description players can quicly browse through. If we fill these with too many templates, the pages will get laggy and eventually break as we've seen happen on our Vaults of the Artificers loot page.
 * Ah-hah! A perfect place for an uniformly agreed upon policy to be set in place..
 * And being this is a change that reduces functionality for the users, but helps editors - it should have a low priority. We should work behind the scenes to improve the site, not in the face of it.
 * I see improved functionality for all, and I have been working as much behind the scenes of the visiting editors making sure to complete one chunk at a time before working on the next.. Like I said above, it is not enough to "just" move the pages, redirects and such need to be cleaned up.

I hope this this addresses most of your complaints {{User|Shade}}. I am totally willing to discuss any specific part further. -- {{Face|:D}}}}

{{Post|1|Bladedge (Contributions &bull; Message) 14:24, April 11, 2012 (EDT)|Think I see what tech13 is up to, a big undertaking and there are probably other matters of more concern that should of been address.
 * discussion and vote before a project of lets moved 2k pages and not a Surprise party.
 * Setting up formalizing up guidelines. Its getting there still needs some work. Like file names for icons screenshots, page names, IP ban times, deletions, moves, what should/not be on a page, put large info boxes below or above save page upload botton, pro/demotion easy to find location of the gidelines has I cant find them w/o a bookmark.
 * Simplifying, documenting and standardize the many templates across this site. Like what to do with upgrade tier items so we don't have 100 pages on 3 minor upgrade bonuses. Got 2-3 collectible temps, 3-4 ingredient temps. But there are No potion, non eternal wand temps.
 * Standardize how certain sections of pages are setup. Have your been to the crafting pages, TOC at top, toc at bottom, TOC non existent. This type of TOC for this another for that. Ingredients here, there, MIA.
 * Categorizing, updating and adding, hunting, begging for missing items and its information.
 * DDO Forum presence for asking for asssence on information and images
 * Update and simplify the Createing new page with included templates and uploading of files.

This is the stuff that should be done before major move since non of the pages are broken.

Not sure how many of your read general/advice chat in game on all the servers or join random pugs. They talk about the wiki, read the wiki but rarely add anything to the wiki. WHy??, its gets to complex at times. We should be watching over, keep things inline make sure the visitors can easily add and update information. We should not be the only source of the information and the only ones that know how a feature works.


 * Upload a iamge: do they use file is it FILE: or IMAGE:??? on the page without looking for examples.
 * Create a new page: ughhh how do I add info, Whats is this so called template Iam to use? Where do I find it? Humm this 100s of them is it this one or that one. How do I fill it in with. Screw this Ill just create the page and upload the pic!!

If the end user cant do the simplest thing like create a page upload a file or find the damn edit button (due to sections headers that point to templates or _NOEDIT_ on pages) to change update the information this wiki will fall.

Closet site to ddo wiki (thats not part of wikia) would be http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Main_Page please vist it, explore it with a open mind. They are in better shape then we are. }} {{Post|0|ShoeMaker (Contributions &bull; Message) 15:31, April 11, 2012 (EDT)|Yes, Bladedge, this is a HUGE undertaking. I'm fairly certain I can handle it however. I like big projects, and do not fear them.. When I do not have a big project, as {{User|Neouni}} will tell you, I get bored. As far as guidelines that need creating, {{User|Shade}} has been doing a fairly bang up tit job with those and has few objections or injections from me.

This change will allow me to standardize and fix the numerous broken templates across the site. It is part of the project I have started in my opinion.

As far as Categorizing, updating and adding, hunting, begging for missing items and its information. goes, that is the major part of what this change is.

Forum presence? I think we have sysops here with plenty of forum presence. I believe that Yoko, Shade, and Backley are fairly large forum presences unless I am mistaken.

Updating the create new article section is an overhaul I should be able to start now that Extension:CharInsert is installed.

All of the item pages are currently broken in my opinion. Have you ever looked at the horrible mess of a Category tree at the bottom of the item pages, or the massive numbers of pages that are placed in the item category that in NO way belong there.

I watch general and advice channels often, and I've found that those people are too lazy or don't have the time and claim it is because the wiki is too complex. Yes, there are many parts of the wiki that are fairly complicated to change or add stuff too. I've spent a great deal of time trying to make the end user part of it as simplistic as possible even if the inner workings of the templates are extremely complex. That is the point of a template in my opinion. To process a possibly extremely complex process with minimal input from the end-user and get a very specific output that all can understand.

There is a link on the file upload page that takes them to the file naming and usage policy, which needs to be consolidated. I believe I have seen all of the parts in various locations, and the critical ones are on the file naming and usage policy page.

I hope this answers at least some of your questions Bladedge. {{Face|:D}}}} {{Post|1|Ague (Contributions &bull; Message) 17:27, April 11, 2012 (EDT)| /rant on

Honestly, I'd have to agree with Shade and Bladedge on this matter. I am no stranger to wiki's and have been doing edits on various wiki's over the years to include Wikipedia, and some of the template's do get a little ridiculous as far as complexity goes. I have spent a considerable amount of time away from the game and my guild to try and make some useful contributions on the wiki. My sole purpose was to come here and add locations of scrolls, wands and potions throughout the world. I have since been sucked in trying to help out on projects, which I don't mind at all.

But I agree that before starting a massive project like moving a ton of pages from one namespace to another, the admins need to take a look at the casual user and the casual editors. My first few edits were back in 2009 and I for the life of me couldn't figure out why the content I just added was almost immediately changed and updated (format). It's because when opening the edit page, there are absolutely NO indications of how to edit and maintain policy with naming conventions, format uniformity, etc... The Help: namespace needs to be more prevalent and easier to access for new editors so they don't get disgruntled. And everything in the Template: namespace needs a complete re-vamp, adding documentation on how to properly use the template, erase deprecated templates, erase templates that nobody use. There, IMHO, should only be a handful of templates:
 * Number Formatting - only one template, can be used to add commas, for currency; would only require a flag as a first variable to determine what the format is being used for
 * Quest Template - think this is pretty good now; maybe have 2, one for quests and one for raids
 * Weapon Template - for all types of weapons
 * Armor Template - ditto for armor
 * etc.....

You see where I am going with that... Anyways, I guess my biggest gripe would be the lack of good documentation on editing. The Mediawiki is great for general editing, but if everything is going to be passed through a template, then there really is no need to explain the basics to the end user/editor. Templates need a lot of work, and I thin kthis is more of a big deal than shifting things over to a new namespace.

/rant off}} {{Post|0|ShoeMaker (Contributions &bull; Message) 18:07, April 11, 2012 (EDT)|The reason I proposed this project, and started it, was because of the walls I was hitting in my attempts to fix the current templates. I understand (for the umpteenth time) that this is a massive project and undertaking. I'm not asking for help in completing it. The wiki as it is is fairly dysfunctional. There is way to much category bleeding and complicated layouts. I am working on simplifying this. This is a paramount step in the process of simplifying this. Sure, this process may take me a month or two, which at the end of, there will be negligible category bleeding and a simplified template layout(as-well-as less templates as some will be consolidated to simplify use). There is no need for a number formating template where-as this is part of the Extension:FormatNum installed on this wiki. The current two templates that I have for currency, if attempted to be combined into a single template would be MASSIVE in size, and that would increase the complexity of them at this time. Template:Named Weapon, Template:Named Armor, Template:Named Clothing, Template:Named Jewelry, Template:Named Shield will all be able to be easily consolidated into Template:Named Item once I complete the move into the namespace. I had quit working on the project due to RL issues (I had a baby) and have not yet picked the project back up due to all of the complications of categorical bleeding complaints and other issues. Template:Bind, Template:Skills, Template:Stat, Template:Res, Template:Seeker, Template:DR, and the list goes on.. Without the ability to auto-categorize in these templates, the editor would have to manually place the item in all of the correct categories without misspelling or mis-capitalizing the cat names. Let's pick an example.. How about a middle of the road Ornamented Dagger (Level 12) (Tier 2).. The user that wants put up this item would have to verbatim type in:

This would be the only other way to eliminate the same amount of category bleeding that putting the item in Item: namespace and me going through the 49 templates and setting them up to automatically categorize this item in all of those categories will do. I'm sure the average user/editor would prefer auto-cat over having to type all of that in. *sigh*}}