Talk:Elemental Resistance

Stacking
Does this property stack with any other sources of fire resistance? 86.27.102.205 14:23, May 31, 2011 (EDT)
 * All the obvious ones (clickies for example)
 * Ship Buffs?
 * How about Class abilities, such as Favoured Souls chosen resistance +10?



ShoeMaker 18:30, May 31, 2011 (EDT)
 * Guild ship, static item, and item clicky resistances do not stack with themselves.
 * Class ability resistances DO stack with guild ship, static item, and item clicky resistances.

Sonic not included?
How come Sonic isn't considered to be one of the elemental resistances? Technically it isn't an element, but it's definitely grouped with them in Protection from Energy and Resist Energy spells; FvS can pick one of the elements or sonic for inherent resistance; rogues can get enhancements protecting from all five; sonic resist cloaks are at least as common as fire/cold/acid/lightning resist cloaks; there are sonic ship shrines; etc. Perhaps we should move this page to Energy Resistance (which simply redirects here)? Or is there something that specifically protects from ELEMENTS (i.e., those four, but not sonic), rather than individual ones? Does Past Life: Ranger protect against Sonic? Unless this is the case (and even if it *is* the case, it's the exception, rather than the rule, and can be noted as such), I think we should go with Energy instead of Elemental, and then turn Sonic Resistance into a redirect similar to the other four. LrdSlvrhnd (Contributions • Message) 05:21, April 8, 2012 (EDT)


 * Like you said, the main reason Sonic isn't grouped with the 4 elements is a reluctance to consider Sonic an element. Maybe it has something to do with the 4 types of Elementals (Fire - fire elemental, Cold - water elemental, Acid - earth elemental, Lightning - air elemental). So there is no type of Elemental associated with Sonic.

But I agree, we don't have to be that anal by keeping it only in the energy category, it should be treated like the other elements and considered both an element and an energy type as far as categorization goes. by Mjoll (Contributions • Message) 06:00, April 8, 2012 (EDT)



Well yea sonic isn't part of the core elemental line. EG ingame impacts:
 * Sorcerer savants, all 4 each have impacts on these spells. none on sonic.
 * Some named items using the word "elements or elemental" generally have these 4 resists, but no sonic.

So the wording does help teach players a useful tip in what elemental refers to in DDO, if nothing else.

If you check the history you can see the page used to be energy resistance. I changed it to be more specific for a reason:
 * Energy Resistance is a far too vague name for the page, and too broad of a subject. And while I agree that page itself deserves to be created, this one doesnt need moved there, tahts just reversing the cycle.
 * The main reason i moved it to was to avoid getting a too long and complex page for what most users will read only to get the specifics on 1 linked resistance they are looking at on a named item... If we were to cover ALL energy resistance, we'd have to also add:
 * Light
 * Force
 * Poison (Being added in expansion it seems)
 * Slashing/Bludgeoning/Piercing.. Yes physical energy damage - eg blade barrier, cometfall, a confusing subject that would take up quite a bit of space.

It would also make correct categorization rather difficult, as elementals are all standard lootgen suffixes.. The rest are not quite. Sonic resist for example is not currently listed as a shield suffix - that might be an error tho, not sure.

So no, we should not go back, the page would be too long and not serve its intended purposes.

But yes, we should create the page Energy Resistance and explain what it is, and why its different from elemental, etc.

If anything we may wish to separate all the pages back into individual resists, and only have this page as a transcluded reference of what "elemental" refers to. Amalgamated enchantments should only be used for very breif, simple enchantments, and these are starting to get a bit more complex.

PS: I've answered your question regarding the rnger past life by updating its article appropriately. Shade (Contributions • Message) 06:24, April 8, 2012 (EDT)


 * Why would you want to include light, force, poison, slash, bludgeon or pierce? Those have less things in common with the 4 elements than sonic has (all 5 appear on the character tab, all 5 are energy types, the resist energy spell, the protection from energy spell, the rogue enhancements, the ranger past life). Sure, grouping sonic resistance with the other 4 is a stretch but it's a minor stretch as opposed to grouping slash damage with the 4 elements.

A solution would be to rename the page to Elemental Energy Resistance and add a note about Sonic not being a fully fledged element type. by Mjoll (Contributions • Message) 07:19, April 8, 2012 (EDT)

Because we are the ddowiki, and we want to be as detailed as possible. And because its an important subject MANY players commonly confuse. EG FAQ: Why didn't my DR work against that that cometfall spell, yet did against a bludgeoning attack from a weapon.

Or even more confusing still: Why did the blade barrier magictrap not get reduced by DR, while the slashing blade trap did?

So yea.. A page called energy resistance, should cover ALL energy resistance. A page called elemental resistances covers all elementals, as the current one does, and thus the rename being accurate.

re: add a note.. mm one is already there imo: There are a couple more resistance types, though they are not considered elemental types and are much less commonly seen:

Feel free to re-word/expand it to clarify.

Your suggested rename sounds fine to me as yea I guess fire/acid/cold/lightnign are all technically elemental "energy" resists. Though it seems logical to me that if energy and non-energy physical dmg can occur, the same could maybe apply to elements (tho currently in DDO, I dont think thtats the case, all sources of say fire, are considered energy atm). Shade (Contributions • Message) 17:02, April 8, 2012 (EDT)


 * Yeah, I was referring to grouping sonic and the elementals (Sounds like a garage band covering video game songs...) together simply because of how often they're grouped together in-game. With links to the others, similar to how sonic and light is linked on this page.

Sonic is linked with lightning/fire/cold/acid FAR more often than not, in my experience.
 * Random lootgen - maybe not shields, but certainly cloaks.
 * This includes direct resistance, clicky resistance, and clicky protection.
 * Spells
 * Again, both resistance and protection
 * Character sheet
 * Ranger Past Life feat
 * Rogue enhancements
 * FvS feats
 * Ship shrines
 * Probably a lot of other stuff
 * For what it's worth, and it really shouldn't count, but Screaming, Sonic Guard, and Sonic Resist fall under Elemental in Cannith Crafting

All five fall under standard "energy resistance". If anything, THAT should be the page, with the few things (what named items, out of curiosity?) that don't include sonic being specifically mentioned on their pages ("NOTE: this only affects the four elemental energies and not Sonic" kinda thing), and Elemental Resistance linking there.

Light only comes on named items. I couldn't find anything for Force (unless you include like nightshield, which is more of a total block of certain spells but wouldn't do jack vs. a Force weapon). Poison resistance is generally a bonus to saves (e.g. Envenomed Cloak. Physical falls under DR and not energy resistance by anything except the most extreme stretch of the imagination.

And IMHO, arbitrarily moving the page yourself without discussion is kind of... not kosher. LrdSlvrhnd (Contributions • Message) 15:15, April 8, 2012 (EDT)

re: items. Type into search bar will show ya: Elements: Elemental
 * First results: Cannith elemental weapons line (theres is a fire, cold, acid and lightning version, no sonic)
 * 2nd result: Elemental Mastery
 * 3rdish various elementa monsters (sonic elementals dont exist in core dnd rules nor ddo, all 4 other elems do.
 * Epic Ring of Elemental Essence

Tons more. Your examples are all vague and pretty much all refer to just one spell and the fact the game has previously just focused on 5 elements as that was what conveniently fit on the character sheet (note lights on there now, and possibly more in the future).
 * Protection from Elements - a non core spell Turbine added to DDO much later post release to make for simpler gameplay (previously all resists and protection were per single spell, not grouped). Not because its a very lore sitting name.. The name is an exception, not the rule.. The rule turbine follows is pretty clear from my above examples. And i've already edited said spell some time back to prevent confusion.

RE: opinion one moving wrongly named pages: Noted, however - It's common wiki practice. All registered users are encouraged to move pages at will that they feel are misnamed. This one was very obviously misnamed. It's a very simply reversible process, and even non-sysops may do it in most cases, so there's no reason not to. As long as a good reason is given in summary (and i believe mine was, and is as I expanded upon here.).

Also disagree with your use of the word arbitrary. Was nothing of the sort.

RE: Poison resistance: Just a hunch, but I believe they will add an item/spell with it based on some comments from the recent gamespot video, check it out. (Green Dragon = poison breath.. not gona be boring old drink a neut pot and be immune i bet.) And the fact a resistance against said dmg type doesnt negate its existance.. We already had weapons with poison energy dmg type since the games inception, and im sure u know about the recently added U13 weapons with poison burst. Shade (Contributions • Message) 17:02, April 8, 2012 (EDT)


 * I agree, sonic shouldn't be under ELEMENTAL... I'm saying it and the elementals should be under ENERGY. IE, the way it was before you arbitrarily (excuse me, unilaterally without discussion) moved it.

Hunches for new stuff that hasn't come out yet don't count. Especially new stuff that hasn't come out yet and even if your hunch is correct has no bearing on the discussion, as poison isn't energy (Light, maybe Force, could both be considered energy. However, I still think they should be separate.  Poison is most definitely not an energy...). Maybe they'll add Poison Resistance with MotU, wouldn't surprise me if they did, but... no bearing on this discussion, as it's not energy.

The way things used to be counts even less. Metalline is new, you still gonna call it transmutation and say it bypasses physical DR?

Named items are generally the exception to the rule to begin with, giving extra bonuses than is general possible, including stuff that doesn't otherwise exist or isn't otherwise available in that particular slot.

There is a LOT more stuff that links sonic and the elementals than there are that separate sonic and the elementals. Sure, a lot of it boils down to two spells, one of which isn't in PnP (which ALSO has absolutely no bearing on the discussion, since we're talking about DDO, not D&D).

And what's vague about listing two specific spells, a specific set of class enhancements, a specific set of class feats, a specific set of ship buffs, and a specific past life feat?

Also, I don't see Light shown on my character sheet with the other energy resistances...

The spell is Protection from Energy. The other spell is Energy Resistance. There are five energy resistance ship shrines (well, 15, if you count lesser, basic, and greater separately). Random items give Protection from Energy and Energy Resistance as clickies. Random items give a permanent Energy Resistance for five different types of energy. There are feats and enhancements for five different types of energy. All of this means that ELEMENTAL stuff is the exception and not the rule... and elementals and alchemical elemental weapons aren't even part of this discussion because this is about the specific effect of RESISTANCE. Not damage. Not monsters. Not damage guards. Not spell types. Not spell boosts. Resistance. This should be "Energy Resistance," not "Elemental Resistance" simply because "energy" is the rule IN CURRENT DDO, and "elemental" is the exception. LrdSlvrhnd (Contributions • Message) 17:42, April 8, 2012 (EDT)


 * Okay.. So EVERYONE seems to agree that Fire, Ice (water), and Acid (earth) are elemental.. Electricity (air) is also agreed to be considered elemental and the line appears blurred whether or not sonic (air) is also elemental... I believe it is also somewhat indisputable that Light and force are included in the group of "Energies".. What doesn't seem to have been considered are Positive and Negative energies..  Poison seems to be a hotbed of debate in of itself.. My thoughts are as follows...


 * Fire
 * Element
 * Protection from Elements
 * Energy
 * Resist Energy, Protection from Energy
 * Water (ice)
 * Element
 * Protection from Elements
 * Energy
 * Resist Energy, Protection from Energy
 * Earth (acid)
 * Element
 * Protection from Elements
 * Energy
 * Resist Energy, Protection from Energy
 * Electricity (air)
 * Element
 * Protection from Elements
 * Energy
 * Resist Energy, Protection from Energy
 * Sonic (air)
 * Element
 * Protection from Elements
 * Energy
 * Resist Energy, Protection from Energy
 * Positive
 * Energy
 * Focus of Positive Energy
 * Negative
 * Energy
 * Focus of Negative Energy
 * Force
 * Energy
 * Light
 * Possibly Energy
 * Light Resistance
 * Poison
 * Possibly Energy
 * Neutralize Poison
 * Physical (Bludgeon, Slash, and Pierce)
 * NONE ShoeMaker (Contributions • Message) 22:47, April 8, 2012 (EDT)
 * NONE ShoeMaker (Contributions • Message) 22:47, April 8, 2012 (EDT)


 * Elements lack consistency in D&D and DDO. You have the 4 elements + positive + negative + lots of minor elements. You have 5 chromatic dragons but green is associated with acid (same as the black dragon) or with poison. Mephits are split in 3 categories in DDO (air, fire and earth outsider), with ice mephits being grouped up with air mephits. There are 5 types of abishai but 2 of them (black and green) are associated with the same element (acid). There are monster subtypes in the same monster category that are associated with the 4 elements but resistance wise only some of them have elemental weaknesses/immunities (usually cold and fire).

I can see players expecting to find sonic resistance on this page instead of a link to another page because of all the ties sonic has in DDO with the 4 'true' elements (items, character sheet, resistance shrines, resistance/protection spells, those rogue enhancements, ranger past life), ties that relate to the resistance part and not the damage dealing part of the elements since this is a page about resistances.

So, to avoid an edit war and to keep both sides happy, we rename the page to 'Elemental Energy Resistance' (alternatively rename it to 'Energy Resistance'), add sonic, add a note about sonic not being a true element blah blah, remove the 'Sonic Resistance' link and keep the 'Light Resistance' link. Yes votes? No votes? by Mjoll (Contributions • Message) 05:14, April 9, 2012 (EDT)

Theres nothing to vote on imo. slvrhand just wants to create a giant amalgated page of all energies. He should just go ahead and do so. No one's disagreeing on that.

He's just talking as if by me moving what was a tiny page of a few bytes its preventing him from doing so.. It's not, we can have both.

Whats perhaps in question is if we should redirect every individual resits to one giant page, or do that much at all for other enchantements. I don't think so because it will make the page too long, and mess up categorization putting named item only + lootgen effects together. If anything I might seperate em all out, and add some "found on" sections as those are always useful. Shade (Contributions • Message) 06:06, April 9, 2012 (EDT)


 * I do NOT want to 'create a giant amalgamated page of all energies', I wanted to DISCUSS an "energy resistance" page that included Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fire, and Sonic, because those five specific energies are linked together in so many ways. I didn't want to include Light, I explicitly said I didn't want to include Light (except maybe as a link, as it and Sonic currently are on this page).  I didn't want to include Force, I explicitly said I didn't want to include Force (Is there even anything that offers Force Resistance along these lines, other than Nightshield which outright blocks magic/force missiles but wouldn't do jack against a Force weapon?).  You're the one talking about 'a giant amalgamated page of all energies.'  You were the one talking about how if we include sonic, then we should include light and force and poison (which isn't an energy by any stretch of the imagination) and bludgeon and slashing and piercing and who the hell knows what not.  *I* simply wanted to talk about putting it back how it was, with the four elementals and sonic under "Energy Resistance."

I didn't want to simply DO it because obviously another admin had changed it, and I didn't want to start an edit war. I wanted to DISCUSS it with other admins first and come to a consensus first.

YOU were the one who was bringing in all these elemental-related things that had nothing to do with RESISTANCE into it. LrdSlvrhnd (Contributions • Message) 17:47, April 9, 2012 (EDT)



my vote is to yoko5000 (Contributions • Message) 22:53, April 10, 2012 (EDT)
 * rename this page to Energy Resistance and include Sonic.
 * this page shouldn't include Light and Force Resistance, but add links to them. these things cannot be found as random-gen item property. thus these pages need to be templated and categorized separately.
 * take Silverhand's (?) suggestion on page naming and structure. take Shade's suggestion on page contents and notes.