DDO wiki talk:Naming policy/Archive01

Cleared it since it was just a broken, hard to delete link.

But we should probably restart the page, as a naming policy sounds like a good thing.

Seems like the old version tihocan referred to must of said put everything lowercase.. But personally I dont think that's ideal. I think we should use uppercase in some cases to match the in-game naming - for places where it makes sense.. Like feats and skills.

Guess we have some minor stuff over on the Editing guideline page.. But should have more finite policy for this here. Shade 00:49, March 5, 2012 (EST)

Shade File naming on Upload file page
Dont think is possible since its some type of protected system page. But I think be a nice idea to have a brief version of Shade File naming - Item pages on the Upload file page. Bladedge 18:44, March 28, 2012 (EDT)

Yea there is a fairly big issue in that players new to the wiki very frequently can't figure out how to upload files. I'm sure lots more WANT to contribute, but they get intimidated by our complex templates and wiki coding, and give up in frustration.. Other wikis have it set up a lot better: pic missing.. click the missing pic and it brings up an upload prompt that works..

Guy1: Ours.. pic missing no pic - click pic, try to upload.. overwrite nopic, peerless reverts it.. Locks page.

Guy2-99 (probably more, just another one today I responded to here: User talk:Tyrglyph.: Clicks pic, tries to upload: Erorr page is protected.. Stuck.

Plus that nopic.jpg is ugly as hell imo..

Personally I think just filling in the file names and having it show 420px redlink is more intuitive and cleaner even. Line of text - red or not is a lot less ugly then that nopic IMO. Though we could take it a step further and lock the filenames right in the templates.

Other hand maybe we can make a new nicer nopic, that doesn't link to itself, but instead links to the proper upload destination. We might need a new extension to do that, but definitely possible since other wikis do it.

What your suggesting sounds possible too (good suggestion BTW).. Most of the wiki software user-interface text is customizable, just a matter of finding the filename.

Either way, I'll try to find a solution soon. Shade 20:06, March 28, 2012 (EDT)


 * An even simpler solution. File Moving. Similar to what we have with regular pages, where it moves the page to the new name, only with the file. (restrict move ability to Sysop, and don't create a redirect) Yawgmoth 01:26, March 29, 2012 (EDT)



Guy2-99 (probably more, just another one today I responded to here: User talk:Tyrglyph.: Clicks pic, tries to upload: Erorr page is protected.. Stuck."
 * "Dont think is possible since its some type of protected system page. But I think be a nice idea to have a brief version of Shade File naming - Item pages on the Upload file page."
 * It is possible, but you would have to get to do it because it is a Special:Page and we do not have access to those even with full privileges...
 * "Guy1: Ours.. pic missing no pic - click pic, try to upload.. overwrite nopic, peerless reverts it.. Locks page.
 * peerless isn't here anymore..
 * "Plus that nopic.jpg is ugly as hell imo.."
 * Make a better one.
 * "Personally I think just filling in the file names and having it show 420px redlink is more intuitive and cleaner even. Line of text - red or not is a lot less ugly then that nopic IMO."
 * 420px redlink is ugly.. Why not set the filenames to " |picdesc =  no_pic.jpg|link= "
 * I'll make it even easier and build you a Template:Nopic..
 * "Other hand maybe we can make a new nicer nopic, that doesn't link to itself, but instead links to the proper upload destination. We might need a new extension to do that, but definitely possible since other wikis do it."
 * See above two bullets..
 * "An even simpler solution. File Moving. Similar to what we have with regular pages, where it moves the page to the new name, only with the file. (restrict move ability to Sysop, and don't create a redirect)"
 * We do not have it yet because, as some of you may remember, we used to host our files on an Enterwiki server instead of right on . When the files got moved over, they were a direct copy into the root files system which has been causing "Issues" to say the least. The files are here and we can access them, but the wiki doesn't know they are here, which is why we can not delete them (yeah those ones).  Xevo doesn't want to allow file moving at this point until he gets the situation straightened out.  In order to fix this, he will have to pull all of the files off of the server, and upload them through the wiki interface.  He does not have the time for this right now with his other programing project he is working on right now.  Perhaps by the end of the summer when we upgrade to MW1.19 (planned).. ShoeMaker (Contributions &bull; Message) 05:25, March 29, 2012 (EDT)

Project: Switch to Title Case? Requesting comments from administrators/regular editors

 * View the list of all articles, then find the ones that are miscased... Yawgmoth (Contributions &bull; Message) 16:06, April 23, 2012 (EDT)


 * Well, that method seems kinda... EEP! lol But yeah, I'm definitely for Shade's idea, having things more standardized = looks better. LrdSlvrhnd (Contributions &bull; Message) 16:09, April 23, 2012 (EDT)


 * I'm Opposed. My original post seems to have not saved this morning.. Basically, The current naming convention is the better of the two.  Changing "The Harbor Loot" implies there is an item named "The Harbor Loot" where-as "The Harbor loot" very clearly specifies the stuff on the page is loot from The Harbor.

Your titlecase suggestion also would require piped links for anything that isn't named, or all kinds of improper English cases in sentences in order to make the links work because a link to In Development doesn't go to the same place as in development. I think this is a very bad idea. ShoeMaker (Contributions &bull; Message) 16:29, April 23, 2012 (EDT)


 * I'm for it. 150%.  It is going to create a bunch of work, but once all is said and done, the appearance of the page titles will be much more of that of a professional wiki (i.e. Wikipedia). Ague (Contributions &bull; Message) 19:08, April 23, 2012 (EDT)


 * For the record, this is NOT the naming convention that wikipedia uses.. See The featured article for 19:25, April 23, 2012 (EDT) with links to Wage reform in the Soviet Union, 1956–1962 (reform is not capitalized), Soviet working class, Piece work, and Capital good. ShoeMaker (Contributions &bull; Message) 19:25, April 23, 2012 (EDT)


 * *flips a coin* Against, apparently.... I prefer not having a thousand redirects to click thru just to get to one page Yawgmoth (Contributions &bull; Message) 19:50, April 23, 2012 (EDT)

Against: I think having the wiki use naming that differs from the in-game naming is good and highlights what is an in-game object/name vs. what is not. Plus, lots of work for very little gain in my opinion. I could get behind Taurolyon's "The Harbor/Loot" idea maybe. Backley (Contributions &bull; Message) 11:52, April 24, 2012 (EDT)

Well looks like we need more input to come to a consensus (4 for, 4 against - not counting the guy who just made a random decision).

But have to point out some invalid points:
 * redirects .. This project has ZERO to do with redirects. Trying to use that as some deterrent is utterly illogical. And just seems like you guys sound like a broken record, as you tried to use it as some kinda excuse against my other recent idea too, where again it made no sense. If anything, it will result in slightly less redirects due to the one example i mentioned - enchantments names (which are title case now) redirecting to bonus name pages (lower case) - a few (base name ones) wont anymore. Though I don't consider that a plus or a minus. A simple redirect is NOT a bad thing, you guys seem to act like it is. It's something thats entirely invisible to the average user and should not influence our decision in this very much unrelated topic. The only related thing is that yea, moving pages will cause some additional maintenance to be needed afterwards, tho rarely anything that takes more then 5 minutes of work, then its done forever.


 * Wikipedia or the newspaper don't use it. How is that relevant? Most gaming wikis do, they, and the are very different from Wikipedia. Here is the explanation for the difference from ACCWiki:
 * Note: Wikipedia and many other wikis use lower case or first letter upper case (e.g., "Naming conventions" or "naming conventions") in naming articles, templates, images, etc. However due to the specialized nature of ACC Wiki wherein it holds only content related to Asheron's Call, title case is the default for naming because that is what is used in game.

Same applies here.. Yea it's something that makes sense for an overall encyclopedia. But that's not what is. It's something that covers one specialized topic, and that one specialized topic - the game, uses title case. So while Wikipedia might end up with ~50% or less pages with title case, we end up with 90%, with the other 10% looking out of place.


 * Techs point: Valid, but I don't think the average reader is that dumb. MMO players understand what the term "Loot" means. So it appearing at the end of a title isn't particularly confusing imo. And Taurolyon's proposed solution addresses it just fine. It's also a category-only issue, which could be a special case.


 * Backley, yea I get what you're saying.. But to me it seems like there are a ton more conflicts where the subject does exist in game, (One i pointed out - Natural Armor Bonus - and all other bonus pages really) then when there isn't. Pretty much as the wiki is now, ~90% of pages are title case - as obviously most of what we cover exists directly in the game with some standard naming already. While ~10% of categories are (and about half are those are because there named wrong). Pretty much its just causing our categories to be incongruous with our non-categories, not seeing the benefit there.


 * re: Mjol, yea i don't get you.. You undoudedly put hundreds of hours into your massive projects (great job btw) and pretty much always use title case.. eg: Monster Information - violates your position/current naming policy, should be Monster information. Same goes for your new proecjtL Item Enchantments - should be Item enchantments. Why the sudden change of heart?


 * Another relevant example: Enhancement Bonuses. These exist on some thousand plus pages, all with upper case. Yet you click the link, and you end up with at a lower case version of it - did the user want a concise explanation of Enhancement Bonuses (Plus Type) or did they want the generic page about the more complex topic of enhancement bonuses in general?. Enchantments per the policy are meant to have their own, capitalization-matched title pages, yet this is some exception? Sure there's arguments for both, but its not clear why either is correct, and would be more unified, streamlined and easier with title case.

Anyways yea we'll need more input or for people to change their minds to come to a consensus. Given it's a large project it's important the majority agree, and at least a cpl are willing to help get it done. Shade (Contributions &bull; Message) 14:56, April 24, 2012 (EDT)


 * That is not my primary concern.. My primary concern comes from the horrible results that would occur because "check out our quests by adventure pack page." does not go to the same place as "check out our Quests by Adventure Pack page." This would force the editor to have to pipe the correct link to the proper English on the page → " check out our quests by adventure pack page. ", they would end up with bad grammar and improper case in a sentence on the page → "check out our Quests by Adventure Pack page.", or even worse they would end up with a redlink → "check out our quests by adventure pack page." ShoeMaker (Contributions &bull; Message) 15:30, April 24, 2012 (EDT)


 * It's not a change of heart, I was indifferent to the naming policy when sentence case and title case were coexisting on the wiki. So I wasn't giving it much thought and went with the flow - even if I didn't liked it - until this topic appeared. And I came forward after your proposal to move to 100% title case and eliminate sentence case completely.


 * Sentence case and title case can continue to coexist on the wiki. Use title case for everything (I have my reservations here but for the sake of the discussion I'll go with 'everything') that is taken from the game and that uses title case. Use sentence case for things that are not directly taken from the game (builds, crafting guides, etc).
 * For the Natural Armor Bonus example... Treat words that are often paired together like proper nouns on page names and when linking to them but don't enforce this rule otherwise. So Natural Armmor Bonus becomes Natural Armor bonus (natural + armor mean something when paired together, bonus is more a 'satellite' word that can be connected to many words).
 * Page name: Natural Armor bonus
 * Link: The Natural Armor bonus can be found on...
 * Plain text: The natural armor bonus can be found on...
 * Of course this needs a more in-depth discussion, one example is not enough.


 * The 'in your face!' approach, singling out 2 pages I created and renaming them (changing one letter for each because apparently I can't imagine how the change from uppercase to lowercase letters looks like), along with the insinuating comments attached to the edits are supposed to mean something? Maybe it's just a coincidence that you picked those 2 pages and you plan on renaming other dozens or hundreds of pages in the next hours in the name of the naming policy, right? And maybe you would have renamed those pages today anyway even if I would have supported your proposal, right?


 * I'm giving it another try, you keep spelling my name wrong:
 * the name Mjol is 4 letters long → User:Mjol doesn't exist on the wiki
 * the name Mjoll, the one that I'm using, is 5 letters long (M J O L L) → User:Mjoll exists on the wiki by Mjoll (Contributions &bull; Message) 17:45, April 24, 2012 (EDT)


 * Hey, I count, so it's 5 against! Shade, you seem to forget that every time a page is moved, it makes redirect. Ive got my browser set to disable redirect until i click to proceed. I only tossed the coin because I wanted to get this over with, so we can get to the other elephant in the room, Item: namespace. @Mjoll: don't worry about it, we've come to expect Shades typos Yawgmoth (Contributions &bull; Message) 19:02, April 24, 2012 (EDT)



You said you flipped a coin to make your decision. Not at all a fair way to decide wiki policy, and thus why your votes not important. Provide any valid reason why your voting one way or another and I would consider your vote just the same as anyone elses.

re: I have my browser set to disable redirects - very strange, but again redirects have ZERO bearing on the project. No more or no less will be created if it's done correctly. Yes redirects will be created in the process - but that is something that requires only some simple maintenance to correct, and will not impact the site at all for anyone, not even you.

Additionally and while this is offtopic - your browser settings would have zero effect on the matter. The wiki never actaully redirects users to other urls. It transcludes the intended page into the current url, thus your browser settings are irrelevant, redirects pages will work fine for you as your browser will never know the difference. Shade (Contributions &bull; Message) 22:36, April 24, 2012 (EDT)


 * Kobold starting to dislike you. Not kobold fault, there was SHINY!!!! For the record, kobold think this bad idea too..  Not in the face! NOT IN THE FACE! AHHHHH!!!!! Kobold worker (Contributions &bull; Message) 20:48, April 24, 2012 (EDT)


 * ... LOL he does it to you all the time.. I think it is just to annoy you. If I were you, I would put:

/* Fix for Shade's misspelling of Mjoll */ $('a[title^="User:Mjol"]').each(function {   this.innerHTML = this.innerHTML.replace("User:Mjoll", "User:Mjol");    this.innerHTML = this.innerHTML.replace("User:Mjol", "User:Mjoll");    this.title = this.title.replace("User:Mjol (page does not exist)", "User:Mjoll");    this.href = this.href.replace("/edit/User:Mjol?redlink=1", "/page/User:Mjoll"); }) on your User:Mjoll/common.js page (based on the "Item: namespace strip by ") and never notice again! ShoeMaker (Contributions &bull; Message) 20:34, April 24, 2012 (EDT)

Taking serious what is posted from an alt account that is known to be an alt account and only has 6 edits under its belt and talking about demotion, this place is starting to look uglier and uglier by the day. The wiki is a hobby for me, I don't get payed for what I do, I'm not getting back the hundreds of hours I spent researching stuff for the wiki but it's all fine as long as I enjoy what I'm doing. And all of this probably applies to everyone posting here. Hell, considering I never TRed yet, if i would have spent the same amount of time in game I would have been at least half way to completionist.

I do defend my projects but I'm pretty easygoing most of the time, I prefer to avoid starting dozens of mini edit wars whenever minutes after I make an edit someone else edits my edit according to their own perspective on the matter, even though both edits are equally valid. So I let things slide, live and let live. But... Rules are good but when they become too restrictive and the hobby turns into army training with regulations and directives and drill sergeants yelling and pointing at you for every single mistake, be it true or imaginary, then you have people snapping back.

Anyway I propose an alternative.

I can think of several roots of this problem regarding title case vs. sentence case: 1. Nobody in their right mind uses uppercase letters for the first letter of every 4th or 5th word when writing a letter, a journal, a book etc. Nobody. 2. Turbine uses title case everywhere, even on their release notes. 3. The wiki immitates Turbine. 4. All wikis are case sensitive for all letters except the first one when it comes to linking.
 * take Rakshasa Hide for example... changing the case for any letter other than the first one leads to red links:
 * rakshasa Hide
 * Rakshasa hide
 * RAkshasa Hide
 * RAKSHASA HIDE

So, based on that, my proposal is to ignore Turbine's usage of title case and go with sentence case, using uppercase letters only for the the first word and for proper nouns for all page names. The sense and meaning of the text remains the same but we avoid using an insane amount of uppercase letters in the middle of a phrase (the bigger the page, the more flagrant this becomes) and we stay closer to how writing presents itself in real life. The downside: wasting time on re-linking to the new pages and creating redirects and I hate redirects just as much as the next guy.

Here's a comparison using a few paragraphs taken from Arcane spell failure.

My proposal, closer to what normal writing looks like Any scroll with a spell on the sorcerer/wizard's list will be susceptible to "arcane" spell failure even if the reader is an artificer, bard wearing light armor, or divine caster. (Thus, clerics cannot reliably use Protection from energy scrolls in their heavy armor). This behavior may be modified in the future, as developers have acknowledged it should not work this way.

Similar to divine spells, artificer-exclusive spells are arcane-type spells but are not subject to arcane spell failure. Artificers using sorcerer/wizard's list scrolls via UMD are subject to arcane spell failure. So, anyone using a Lightning motes scroll suffer no arcane spell failure, but an artificer is susceptible to arcane spell failure when using a scroll of Fire shield (not artificer at all) or Reconstruct (available to artificer but not artificer-exclusive).

Due to this same bug, bards wearing light armor using scrolls on the sorcerer/wizard's list will be susceptible to arcane spell failure, even if the spell exists on the bard spell list as well. So, a bard wearing light armor has no chance of ASF when casting Greater heroism as a spell, but is susceptible to arcane spell failure when casting it from a scroll.

How it looks now Any scroll with a spell on the Sorcerer/Wizard's list will be susceptible to "Arcane" Spell Failure even if the reader is an Artificer, Bard wearing light armor, or divine caster. (Thus, Clerics cannot reliably use Protection from Energy scrolls in their heavy armor). This behavior may be modified in the future, as developers have acknowledged it should not work this way.

Similar to divine spells, Artificer-exclusive spells are Arcane-type spells but are not subject to Arcane Spell Failure. Artificers using Sorcerer/Wizard's list scrolls via UMD are subject to Arcane Spell Failure. So, anyone using a Lightning Motes scroll suffer no Arcane Spell Failure, but an Artificer is susceptible to Arcane Spell Failure when using a scroll of Fire Shield (not Artificer at all) or Reconstruct (available to Artificer but not Artificer-exclusive).

Due to this same bug, Bards wearing light armor using scrolls on the Sorcerer/Wizard's list will be susceptible to Arcane Spell Failure, even if the spell exists on the Bard spell list as well. So, a Bard wearing light armor has no chance of ASF when casting Greater Heroism as a spell, but is susceptible to Arcane Spell Failure when casting it from a scroll.

How it looks now with emphasis on unnecessary uppercase letters Any scroll with a spell on the Sorcerer/Wizard's list will be susceptible to "Arcane" Spell Failure even if the reader is an Artificer, Bard wearing light armor, or divine caster. (Thus, Clerics cannot reliably use Protection from Energy scrolls in their heavy armor). This behavior may be modified in the future, as developers have acknowledged it should not work this way.

Similar to divine spells, Artificer-exclusive spells are Arcane-type spells but are not subject to Arcane Spell Failure. Artificers using Sorcerer/Wizard's list scrolls via UMD are subject to Arcane Spell Failure. So, anyone using a Lightning Motes scroll suffer no Arcane Spell Failure, but an Artificer is susceptible to Arcane Spell Failure when using a scroll of Fire Shield (not Artificer at all) or Reconstruct (available to Artificer but not Artificer-exclusive).

Due to this same bug, Bards wearing light armor using scrolls on the Sorcerer/Wizard's list will be susceptible to Arcane Spell Failure, even if the spell exists on the Bard spell list as well. So, a Bard wearing light armor has no chance of ASF when casting Greater Heroism as a spell, but is susceptible to Arcane Spell Failure when casting it from a scroll.

So you have 196 words and 42 unnecessary uppercase letters, the words to unnecessary uppercase letters ratio being 4.66:1.

And a few page name examples:

Now Example of using Shard of Supreme Power in a phrase.

Proposal Example of using Shard of supreme power in a phrase. Example of using shard of supreme power in a phrase.

Now Example of using Wail of the Banshee in a phrase. Example of using wail of the Banshee in a phrase.

Proposal Example of using Wail of the banshee in a phrase. Example of using wail of the banshee in a phrase.

Now Example of using Natural Armor Bonus in a phrase.

Proposal Example of using Natural armor bonus in a phrase. Example of using natural armor bonus in a phrase.

Now Example of using Shining Crest of St. Markus in a phrase.

Proposal Example of using Shining crest of St. Markus in a phrase.

Now Example of using Otto's Sphere of Dancing in a phrase.

Proposal Example of using Otto's sphere of dancing in a phrase.

Now Example of using Barbarian Power Rage in a phrase. Example of using barbarian Power Rage in a phrase.

Proposal Example of using Barbarian power rage in a phrase. Example of using barbarian power rage in a phrase. by Mjoll (Contributions &bull; Message) 07:13, April 25, 2012 (EDT)

Technical 13 impersonating multiple users, posting insults and trying to use alt accounts as additional votes

 * Where-as is not an administrator in any qualification, this does not qualify as an additional vote or impersonating anything.

A simple misspelling of someones name happens once, not on multiple occasions... You, good sir, have done it repeatedly lately. You as of late have been making policies, and most of it was simply not voted upon by anyone else. You're living under the false assumption that everyone that comes here, has played DDO or at very least PnP and knows something about something.. This is simply not true in MOST cases.. While there may be a few players that come here for twink references of this or that, I would say that a good majority know little about what they are here to look-up or research.. This is a wiki for a game, not Encyclopedia Britannica. There are things that need to be dumbed down a little. Personal attacks and failure to maintain a certain level of professionalism regarding the use of proper English are grounds for demotion.. Your example of an insult to by calling him Mjol after he was VERY clearly upset by this in the previous instance is considered a personal attack in my opinion. Your repeated flat out refusal to check your spellings, grammar, and punctuation on discussion pages is a blatant disregard for Spelling and respect to the three other administrators that have been going around all of the content pages cleaning up after you. Not to mention, commons sense says that everyone should strive to make any post they make to be professional and top-of-the-line. I'm not going to petition for a demotion of you based on any reasons at this point, although I have many.. I am very much not impressed with your actions as of late. You have caused one disruption after another.. Time for me to cool off.. You have made me fairly. I respect the fact that we are two different style people.. Your are a Melee type, and I am a Caster type, and perhaps this is evident in our conflict. However, Shade, I seem to think at this point, the majority of the conflict seems to be between you and I. So, let's discuss things, as I had already started to do on your talk page. ShoeMaker (Contributions &bull; Message) 00:03, April 25, 2012 (EDT)


 * Kobold must clarify... Kobold no vote on topic. Kobold's statement was reply to "  talk:Naming policy‎; 23:02 . . (+534) . . Yawgmoth (Talk | contributions) (My last response. Blame the Kobold for mistakes) [4]"  Kobold think very bad idea blame Kobold for mistakes.. Kobold could care less about your policy.  Kobold hope confusion clarified. Kobold worker (Contributions &bull; Message) 00:44, April 25, 2012 (EDT)

Like you said, "i created the naming policy".. This is not how things should be run.. Then, you continue to explain, "Really the main reason i considered it at first was from seeing a large number of pages by Tihocan years back"... "years back" being the key words there to me.. Really.. Hasn't made an edit in a year.. It's time to let it go.. You also claim, "to copy current conventions, not to enforce new ones" which is quite contrary to what you have been doing in my opinion. In some cases, you have made valid points. An example being outdated templates.. Someone may link to an "old revision" of an item.. However, the answer is not to leave the broken templates that were replaced with new templates for a reason.. The more appropriate solution, is to go through and transclude anything that may use the old template to the new template as best as is possible.. Sure, many parameters may be missing, and, although I've never seen it, there may be an argument that has no appropriate place to transclude it through to. So, you may have to create something, someplace to handle this... If you can not handle this, you could always post a request on one of our advanced template creation guys.. ,, (I believe has dabbled a little and understands the basics of template making), or. ShoeMaker (Contributions &bull; Message) 01:03, April 25, 2012 (EDT)
 * You are an administrator Shade.. This comes with an expectation of professionalism on all pages, including talk pages... Sure, no one is 100% perfect, I do not claim to be, nor would I expect anyone else to be. You are going to make "a mistake" on spelling or grammar or punctuation once in a while.. However, every single post, is unacceptable. I know that if someone had a big fit over a mistake in the way I spelled their name, I would not duplicate the EXACT same mistake a few days later... I would make a point, if nothing else, do NOT duplicate that mistake..  You on the other-hand, just do not seem to care to me.

Violations of Policies
Shade wants to talk about violations of the Naming and Deletion policies and how I am the number one offender.. I am sticking up for the Naming policy and may have had a few typo's when Shade wants to change it to all capitals.. I have figured out why he wants to do such a ridiculous thing, there are 84 uploads that Shade has made that are direct violations of "HIS" Naming policy... Specifically, "Unlike most other page names, Categories use standard English capitalization rules. Thus only proper names are capitalized as in-game, not much else." I'm tired of him accusing me of thinking I am above the rules when HE is the real number one offender and seems to think that since "HE" wrote the policy, he is above it.. A complete list of all 84 files can be found on Category:Flagged for instant deletion with a note saying that correctly named versions need to be uploaded before the violations can be removed. I also just restored seven direct violations of the Deletion policy by Shade. So, if you want to start pointing fingers, point at yourself first. Re-deletion of those seven pages without following proper procedure will be considered grounds for immediate demotion from System Administrator as deemed necessary by a steward, only to be over-ridden by a review. Consider this your written warning on the matter. ShoeMaker (Contributions &bull; Message) 02:24, April 25, 2012 (EDT)

Item: Name Space

 * I believe Talk:Item_Namespace is what you're looking for.

LrdSlvrhnd (Contributions &bull; Message) 04:35, April 25, 2012 (EDT)