Talk:Quests by level

Suggest deleting page
I'd suggest deleting this page in favor of Quests by Level and XP, redirecting one name to the other, I don't particularly care which. If no one objects within a week, I'll take that as authorization to make the change. Hoopy Frood (Contributions • Message) 11:29, July 26, 2015 (EDT)
 * You should probably not think that a week is enough time for everyone to have seen and had time to comment on such a small wiki. Anyways, I currently oppose until there is a way to have the multiple different views available on one page. I know a couple people are whizzes with DPL, and that may be an option or alternatively it could be done with a .js gadget/userscript. You'll have to find someone willing with time to do that or learn to do it yourself and get the working product approved (because an admin would need to put it in MediaWiki space in the case of such a script or a DPL template would need to be fully protected). ShoeMaker (Contributions • Message) 12:11, July 26, 2015 (EDT)

Quests with epic versions
As of the late category edits all epic quests that are originally heroic have been removed from the epic level categories. This makes this page very inconvenient to use as reference to epic levels and leveling. I understand it's annoying to have the same quest in multiple categories so would there be any way around this? Silvyrfir (Contributions • Message) - Sandbox  05:45, August 2, 2015 (EDT)
 * I think the new format (which matches the compendium in-game) is more intuitive and easier to use. We can certainly have a discussion about it though. ShoeMaker (Contributions • Message) 05:57, August 2, 2015 (EDT)
 * This is definitely not easier to use. Some quests have both an epic and a heroic version but that doesn't mean that it doesn't have an epic base level for the epic version, which this list advertises to list them as.  The in-game compendium is bad at this, which is why I used this page often.  Prior to this change it was one of the only places to find quests by level(and not arbitrarily limited to one heading) at a quick glance. Please change it back. 96.40.89.113 20:17, August 2, 2015 (EDT)
 * I agree with the sentiments of Silvyrfir. I feel that in the "Quests by level" listing that a quest should be listed in every base level that it has a version of to list.  Omitting a quest from a higher level list just because it also has a lower level version makes for an inaccurate and incomplete list.  "Matching the compendium" seems like a very poor reason to present incomplete or inaccurate information on the wiki.  If "matching the game" were any kind of an excuse for delivering bad information, which is it not, then there would be no calling out of bugs on the wiki.  Should we go through the wiki and eliminate all references to bugs so that the wiki more closely presents the same information that the game presents, no matter how false that information might be?  I hope that the answer here is "Obviously not."  It would also be nice if this list, were it accurate, could feed into pages such as the Legendary page, which currently under the "Legendary raids" header lists both Hound of Xoriat and The Shroud, despite the fact that these are not Legendary raids at all.  -- Niminae (Contribs • Message • Email ) 15:41, October 15, 2017 (EDT)
 * Good news Nim. We already have both lists, normal AND Compendium-style. I have also removed parameter |epic from heroic HoX and Shroud, in a few hours those two quests should disappear from any automated legendary lists. -- Cru121 (Contribs • Message • Email ) 16:11, October 15, 2017 (EDT)
 * Hmmm, yes I see that now. I was confused by simply hitting 'end' to go to the end of the page where I figured the list of higher level quests by level would be, and did not notice that it had changed to the Compendium list.  Is there any value at all in having the Compendium list?  It does not seem to have any place in the Quests by Level page since it is not an actual list of quests by level, and is instead a preservation of the inaccuracies of the live game Compendium format and list.  It has less and/or inaccurate information, and if I made this error than it is possible that other have done so in the past or will do so in the future.  Or perhaps the Compendium style inaccurate list could be moved to a separate page where no one will probably ever look at it, since the actual full and correct list of quests by level is the list people really want to see when they go to the Quests by Level page.  -- Niminae (Contribs • Message • Email ) 02:28, October 20, 2017 (EDT)
 * Yes, there is a lot of value to having the compendium list. It's your opinion that the information in it is less and/or inaccurate, and not one that myself or others share.  I've added a TOC to the bottom right corner of the page with CSS to make it easier to navigate by level.  There is no way to "properly" remove it without breaking a ton of other pages because of the way that it's automatically generated by NCL based on what's in .  You might find that the Category page is easier for you to use anyway as it's in a different format.  &#x1f45f;&thinsp;ShoeMaker (Contribs&thinsp;•&thinsp;Message&thinsp;•&thinsp;Email )&thinsp;&#x1f45f; 10:17, October 20, 2017 (EDT)
 * Shoe, when you have a list of quests in a page named "Quests by Level" and that list which does not list a quest in every level in which it appears, it is not an opinion that this is less accurate. It is a fact.  If the DDO Compendium list was accurate, then there would be no use at all for the unnamed list just above it which is accurate, after all.  If "you and others" do not recognize the difference between a fact and an opinion, that is not my problem, it is yours.  And I pity you for your failure.  I can understand the reluctance to put in the work needed to correct this error.  If you want to fall back on that as your reasoning, that's fine.  There's no need for you to attempt to redefine the meanings of words in order to provide cover for your priorities.  -- Niminae (Contribs • Message • Email ) 14:56, October 22, 2017 (EDT)
 * That's still your opinion. The page lists all quests in every level it appears in as is indicated on the quest pages themselves, twice.  Once in the top section and once in the compendium section at the bottom.    is indicative that the quests in that section are both level 6 and 24.  If your argument is that they should be listed as 6, 7, 8, 24, 25, & 26 quests (because at different difficulty settings all are true), that's excessively redundant and I don't think you'd be suggesting that. DDOstream (Contribs • Message • Email ) 08:21, October 24, 2017 (EDT)
 * No, it is not an opinion. Not mine, nor anyone else's.  In the previously unnamed but since 10/20 brilliantly named (for the slow, yes this is sarcasm) "Unknown level quests" list for level 20 quests the list is this: "A Small Problem • Bargain of Blood • Partycrashers • Storm the Beaches • The Black Loch • The Dreaming Dark (quest) • The Lord of Blades • The Snitch • The Tide Turns • Tower of Despair • Under the Big Top"  Unless I missed my count, that's 11 level 20 quests.  In the named "DDO Compendium" list the list for level 20 quests is this: "The Dreaming Dark (quest) • Tower of Despair"  Unless I missed my count, that's 2 quests.  Only a complete idiot or one who is devoid of any reasoning faculties would call it an "opinion" that the Compendium list is not accurate or inclusive, because 2 quests listed is not the same as 11 quests listed.   -- &rArr; Niminae (Contribs • Message • Email ) 02:18, October 25, 2017 (EDT)
 * You're simply reading the lists wrong... Level 20 quests:
 * Compendium:Level 5 (20 epic) quests
 * A Small Problem • Partycrashers • The Snitch • Under the Big Top
 * Compendium:Level 7 (20 epic) quests
 * Bargain of Blood • Storm the Beaches • The Black Loch • The Tide Turns
 * Compendium:Level 20 quests
 * The Dreaming Dark (quest) • Tower of Despair
 * Compendium:Level 20 (22 epic) quests
 * The Lord of Blades
 * That's 11 level 20 quests listed as level 20 quests. Seems accurate and inclusive to me.  You don't have to use that list if it doesn't work for you, that's fine.  Others like and appreciate it.  &#x1f45f;&thinsp;ShoeMaker (Contribs&thinsp;•&thinsp;Message&thinsp;•&thinsp;Email )&thinsp;&#x1f45f; 08:29, October 25, 2017 (EDT)
 * No, I am not "misreading" anything at all. I am aware that the "DDO Compendium" list hides many of the level 20 quests parenthetically under their heroic level versions.  This is just another way that the Adventure Compendium is broken in game, and replicating those errors here is stupid beyond words.  -- &rArr; Niminae (Contribs • Message • Email ) 13:11, October 25, 2017 (EDT)
 * The Compendium list is inaccurate. It lists the quests The Giant Lieutenants and The Giants' Lair anf The Threnal Arena when in fact none of these quests actually appears in the Adventurer Compendium in game.  Please correct this error, since the "DDO Compendium" list appears to want to be a complete wiki duplication of all of the failures of the Adventure Compendium.  So please reproduce those failures accurately.  Better yet, delete the Adventure Compendium (called here the "DDO Compendium" for some unknown reason) quest list entirely instead, unless it is maintained in a separate "How the game fails to provide an accurate list of quests by level" wiki page, and stop attempting to reproduce errors in a wiki.  Wikis should rise above errors, and not seek to duplicate them.  -- &rArr; Niminae (Contribs • Message • Email ) 02:55, October 25, 2017 (EDT)
 * The goal isn't to mirror the broken in-game compendium; the goal is to be an accurate version of what the in-game compendium should be. That's why it's the DDO Compendium here and the Adventure Compendium in-game.  &#x1f45f;&thinsp;ShoeMaker (Contribs&thinsp;•&thinsp;Message&thinsp;•&thinsp;Email )&thinsp;&#x1f45f; 08:29, October 25, 2017 (EDT)
 * You have failed at that goal. The Quests by Level list does anything the Compendium list might want to do, but better.  So why keep a stepchild list hanging around when there is a better source for the information anyone might want to look for on that broken list already?  And on the same page even?  No one who wasn't dropped on their heads as a child wants to look for a level 20 quest in amongst several different "Level 5 (20 epic)" or "Level 7 (20 epic)" lists.  The rationale you have attempted to provide for maintaining this useless secondary list has either been false or only appeals to the dim.  -- &rArr; Niminae (Contribs • Message • Email ) 04:19, October 29, 2017 (EDT)
 * Yet again, "does it better" is your opinion, which you are welcome to. Others don't agree and the wiki is here to serve everyone.  Both lists are there, pick the one that suites you and move on.  No more time to waste of your time or my time on this discussion.  Have a great day.  &#x1f45f;&thinsp;ShoeMaker (Contribs&thinsp;•&thinsp;Message&thinsp;•&thinsp;Email )&thinsp;&#x1f45f; 07:21, October 29, 2017 (EDT)
 * How about you put your money where your mouth is? Put it up to a vote and see who thinks that your "We fixed half of the Adventure Compendium flaws but decided to leave the others intact because reasons" list is better than or even deserves to have a place on a page entitled "Quests by Level" with the real list of quests by level.  Or is your talk of "others" really just you digging your heels in over a positive change that you have some investment in for some unknown reason?  -- &rArr; Niminae (Contribs • Message • Email ) 06:38, October 30, 2017 (EDT)

What happened to the epic quests by level list?
I use this page every TR and eTR as a reference for what to run at each level. Why are you suddenly arbitrarily deciding to list each quest by only its heroic level? This is not useful for a quick reference list, not to mention it looks a lot sloppier listing heroic and epic levels on the same line.

Additionally, the in-game compendium is absolutely awful for listing epic quest level. If a quest has a heroic & epic version(which is most of the epics), only the heroic level matters for filtering by level. That's why I used this page, because it didn't require me to stop and scan through the list to figure out what I can run for bravery bonus or just finding something to run at my current level. That's why I like quests by level, it was all right there. Practical. Neatly grouped. Easy to reference.

tl;dr This change sucks, it needs to be reverted. 96.40.89.113 19:43, August 2, 2015 (EDT)

Level 14 quests
I tried editing this section to remove all the Necro 4 epic quests which are erroneously in the list of level 14 quests, but it takes me to a page that tells me that the page I'm trying to edit has been deleted. What gives? Niminae (Contribs • Message • Email ) 08:18, June 23, 2016 (EDT)
 * This is a H:Extension:NiceCategoryList page. This means that the page is automattically created based on what is in the category - .  I wouldn't remove those pages from the category at this time.  I believe that was tried before and it broke a ton of other stuff (such as various DPL queries and other NCL lists).  Once some of the backend work is done, this will be converted to DPL I believe and it will resolve itself.   &#x1f45f;&thinsp;ShoeMaker (Contribs&thinsp;•&thinsp;Message&thinsp;•&thinsp;Email )&thinsp;&#x1f45f; 03:36, October 16, 2017 (EDT)

Page revamp
Recently, I made a new template for quest tables with DPL (see Template:DPL category table and Template:Quest table row meta) and applied it to the pages in Category:Patron factions. I think it looks good. My intention was to apply the template in all the pages that use Template:QTL or have quest tables so that all the tables will have a universal format and will be always up to date. I want to apply the template to this page next. However, the template is a bit heavy and applying it would make the server time out or crash the wiki. I've been trying to make the template lighter, but the favor/xp sum alone is too much. A way around that is to split the page in 3 or 4 parts (1-10, 11-20, 20-30, 31-).

The tables would have these headings (along with their respective totals):

Let me know what you think. &rArr; Faltout (Contribs • Message • Email ) 13:53, June 14, 2018 (EDT)
 * }


 * I think you can go ahead and create four pages with detailed information for the level range. Not sure though if we want to provide it INSTEAD OF or IN ADDITION TO the existing quest lists. BTW can the wiki handle a single quest table that excludes XP columns? -- &rArr; Cru121 (Contribs • Message • Email ) 02:56, June 15, 2018 (EDT)
 * Depending on the information you want to display, it may be able to handle it. The table in Category:DDO Compendium contains almost all the quests with some accurate information and it takes 25 seconds to render. My guess is that if it were to contain accurate information, it would time out. However, we should always ask "What is this table's purpose?". So, what is the current list's purpose? It's simply a category listing. Don't the subcategories of Category:Quests by level serve the same purpose? If you want a raw listing of a level's quests, you can always go to the correct category and see the quests listed there. On the other hand, if you are in a certain level range and want to decide what is the best quest to run for xp, you can sort each quest table (one quest table per level) by xp and you'll have the highest xp quest per level. You will also have the total xp per level and total favor per level. &rArr; Faltout (Contribs • Message • Email ) 04:20, June 15, 2018 (EDT)
 * 1-10 initially timed out, but I substituted the relevant code from the meta template and it worked faster. However, it still takes 10+ seconds to load. Perhaps I should drop to 1-5. &rArr; Faltout (Contribs • Message • Email ) 06:49, June 16, 2018 (EDT)
 * This kind of thing will need to be done with all quests in a single page if it is to be useful. People aren't going to want to have multiple tabs open to find out which "near this level" appropriate quests there are.  &#x1f45f;&thinsp;ShoeMaker (Contribs&thinsp;•&thinsp;Message&thinsp;•&thinsp;Email )&thinsp;&#x1f45f; 08:59, June 16, 2018 (EDT)
 * You are probably right. For now, I created the Level X quests pages and each contains one table (except level 20 which contains 2). I don't know how useful those pages will be, but they will certainly be more useful than a simple listing of the quests by level. One huge table with all the quests can probably be done, but it will lack some functionality. For example, heroic/epic level will have to be displayed in different columns. Favor will only be the base favor. xp will not be able to be sorted. It will also have nothing to do with "quests by level" and will look like "All quests"... &rArr; Faltout (Contribs • Message • Email ) 08:05, June 24, 2018 (EDT)
 * Made a simple phantom template that does the bare minimum to prevent broken page items. It takes about 8 seconds to parse, which is within the acceptable range. It contains: Name, Level, Duration, Base favor, Patron, Adventure pack, Bestowed in, Solo/Casual, Normal, Hard, Elite. The quests are separated into 2 tables (heroic, epic). The test is currently located at User:Faltout/SandBox/Test template but doesn't contain correct data for the epic quests because I used the same heroic template for the xp and level. Those 2 tables contain more information than Quests by level and XP, Quests by level, Quests by duration, Quests by location, Quests by name, Quests by patron, Pay to Play quests, All quests in a few tables and some other long forgotten quest tables. A few pages contain more information about quests: Quests by Adventure Pack (couples heroic and epic together, provides xp totals), Guide to Free to Play (provides bestower), Level 1 quests (provide xp totals). My proposition is that we eliminate all the all-inclusive quest tables replacing them with 2 all-inclusive master tables (heroic, epic). Those tables will serve the purpose of having a list of all the quests in one page and being able to sort by many attributes to quickly find what you're looking for. With those master tables however, you can't compare similar quests or see favor/xp totals for an adventure pack or for a level. So I also propose we make individual tables for those purposes. For example, if you want to examine the quests of a specific level, you can go to the Level 1 quests pages. If you want to examine the quests of an adventure pack, you go to the adventure pack page. If you want to examine the quests in a saga, you go to that saga page. If you want to see the quests in a story arc, you go to that story arc page. All those individual pages will have an index page to allow quick navigation. Of course, my goal is to have all those tables being automatically updated. Thoughts? &rArr; Faltout (Contribs • Message • Email ) 05:41, July 5, 2018 (EDT)
 * I didn't get any feedback on this. I'll start planning a few new pages called... Heroic quests table/Epic quests table/Quests table? Quests table will have both heroic and epic levels for each quest, but no xp values (too large a table to fit or unsortable table). &rArr; Faltout (Contribs • Message • Email ) 06:35, July 17, 2018 (EDT)
 * You didn't get any feedback yet... Be patient.  This small wiki only has  active users who are all volunteers with real lives too.  I don't see any reason to make redundant pages.  Put it all on one page (don't we already have a bunch of pages that do this?) and be done with it.   &#x1f45f;&thinsp;ShoeMaker (Contribs&thinsp;•&thinsp;Message&thinsp;•&thinsp;Email )&thinsp;&#x1f45f; 09:28, July 17, 2018 (EDT)
 * Well, the page name needs to reflect the content. If we already have a page that does, I'll place it there... I separated heroic and epic to display sortable xp values, but this meant that there wasn't an all-quest table (which may be useful for some). That's why I went with 3 pages. As for the number of active users, I don't see what that has to do with the waiting time. If a wiki has less active users, that doesn't mean the waiting periods should become longer. Otherwise, nothing would be done. &rArr; Faltout (Contribs • Message • Email ) 10:15, July 17, 2018 (EDT)