User talk:Cru121

cloaks
Requires User:Cru121/vector.css for proper viewing.



someday...
I'd like to make Epic Destiny Feats a single nice sortable table. Sort by ML, sort by ED spheres, etc. Here's a draft, struggling with ugly popups in headers. Perhaps eventually convert to a new set of templates.

Reaper Bonus
Cru, I have multiple items with ReaperMRR and ReaperPRR on them, and when I equip more than one at a time I only get the 3 PRR or the 3 MRR. They do not stack. -- &rArr; Niminae (Contribs • Message • Email ) 23:04, June 4, 2018 (EDT)
 * Well I have just tested stacking on a few items and it seemed to work. What I have discovered during my tests is that one piece of Paramnesial Lenses has Reaper Power Boost on em but it does not increase my powers AT ALL. So perhaps the bug is not stacking, but that some items fail to provide their bonuses in general. -- &rArr; Cru121 (Contribs • Message • Email ) 00:56, June 5, 2018 (EDT)
 * Well that's bizarre. All I can say is that I've had two items with a ReaperMRR bonus on and only seen a single +3 applied.  Thus my conclusion that this was not a typed bonus.  I've just ERed but next time I hit 28 I'll do a careful "try on" session and record my results.  -- &rArr; Niminae (Contribs • Message • Email ) 08:42, June 5, 2018 (EDT)

Merging new templates into templates being deprecated
I see you added Psychic Ward into Immunity and deleted Psychic Ward, but I'm unclear as to why. I thought we were trying to make the templating system more simplified and easier to remember/figure out by reducing or deprecating templates like MiscEffects, Dmg, Immunity, etc to be only the base of what they need to be? I asked in too, but you're not currently on. FTR... I'm not complaining and yes it was my opinion that they should all be merged into meta templates in 2013 as well, but we've seen a lot of new effects introduced since then and most of the old effects these templates were created for have been updated/modified and no longer exist or only exist on historic version of items no longer acquirable. If you think this discussion would be better in it's own page, I'm okay with you Moveding this message and continuing discussion there, just drop a Ppoi on my talk of the new location. Thanks. &#x1f45f;&thinsp;ShoeMaker (Contribs&thinsp;•&thinsp;Message&thinsp;•&thinsp;Email )&thinsp;&#x1f45f; 12:13, July 20, 2018 (EDT)


 * I don't have a strong opinion, if you would prefer having it a separate template, go ahead. I just thought that it would fit there nicely. And I suspect this will be a fairly rare effect. Not sure if creating a separate template for one or two items makes stuff easier for casual editor. Dunno. -- &rArr; Cru121 (Contribs • &uArr; top &uArr; • Email ) 13:04, July 20, 2018 (EDT)

CRs
Cru, thanks for the assist in deleting the old typo giant page. That should teach me to stop wiki-ing at 5AM before the 4th coffee. =) -- &rArr; Ringmaster
 * Actually I moved the page to Frost_Giant_Hetman, I assume that was your intention. Mmmm, coffee. -- &rArr; Cru121 (Contribs • &uArr; top &uArr; • Email ) 14:50, August 28, 2018 (EDT)

Users want to thank you
That's right, you deserve your own topic section where we (collective users) get to keep coming back to tell you how much we appreciate your feedback. If you don't like the goodwill clutter on your page, go ahead and take it off. If it were up to me, I'd be sticking something like a Gold Star on your report card.
 * Re: category link... wow, that was easy... if I showed you my ridiculous attempts at naming the path of information you'd die laughing. I was trying to reinvent the wheel and it involved dancing chickens and virgin sacrifices. It was easy to find the chickens. &rArr; meander (Contribs • Message • Email ) 16:19, August 30, 2018 (EDT)
 * Glad I could help! :) &rArr; Cru121 (Contribs • &uArr; top &uArr; • Email ) 00:41, August 31, 2018 (EDT)

Cosmetic listings
I'm working on creating what you suggested here: User talk:DDOstream Check my SandBox: User:Faltout/SandBox I believe I managed to collect all the cloak images (but it's hard to be sure). The only thing remaining now is how to display the information. You said something about a gallery? Can you show me an example with 2 or 3 cloak images? &rArr; Faltout (Contribs • Message • Email ) 09:13, November 17, 2018 (EST)
 * Maybe something like this: User_talk:Cru121? -- &rArr; Cru121 (Contribs • &uArr; top &uArr; • Email ) 09:48, November 17, 2018 (EST)
 * Added some line breaks between the cloak names. So you want the quest/chest information gone? Because it would be too much to fit in a single image. Perhaps a popup? &rArr; Faltout (Contribs • Message • Email ) 07:27, November 18, 2018 (EST)
 * Yeah, basically the page should only show pics and popup can show any details needed.-- &rArr; Cru121 (Contribs • &uArr; top &uArr; • Email ) 07:30, November 18, 2018 (EST)
 * Check how the popups look. To be clear, you want the information of "Where the item drops" gone? Just list the items? If so, the names of the items could fit in the image if we made them a bit larger. &rArr; Faltout (Contribs • Message • Email ) 08:16, November 18, 2018 (EST)
 * If we can fit it in, let's add it. If we can't fit it in, readers can still find the location on the item page. -- &rArr; Cru121 (Contribs • &uArr; top &uArr; • Email ) 12:56, November 18, 2018 (EST)
 * It doesn't seem like it can fit. I don't like the popups above because they hide other images (popup from 2nd image hides 1st). I tried to make the names of the items a popup with the quest in it, but the popup is limited to the space of the image (if the popup tries to be outside of the image, it is cropped) which means that the popup is unreadable. I guess it's just the names of the items. Check my User:Faltout/SandBox again. I increased the heights to 450px to try to fit the names of the items in one line, but some names are so big (or some images are so narrow) that they wrap. It's just a few names though and I find it acceptable. If you like the current result I can start working on getting the templates out of my sandbox. &rArr; Faltout (Contribs • Message • Email ) 14:03, November 18, 2018 (EST)
 * In general I like it. The pics are a bit too large for my taste, but I understand that was necessary to fit in the captions. If I am reading this correctly, it should be possible to apply CSS style to captions. Would this allow us to make them smaller / not bold / narrow somehow? We probably would have to use the gallery tag directly instead of the template (?) -- &rArr; Cru121 (Contribs • &uArr; top &uArr; • Email ) 14:14, November 18, 2018 (EST)
 * The captions are the standard text size. We can make them smaller, sure (much much smaller). However, the users would have trouble reading them. Check some bolded sizes: Medium size, Small size , Extra small size , Extra extra small size , Custom 7px size . If you feel we can go from the sandard size to small or extra small without sacrificing readability, I'm all for it. I'll edit an image above to showcase some sizes. &rArr; Faltout (Contribs • Message • Email ) 14:32, November 18, 2018 (EST)
 * I would say go down to font size 12, or maybe also not bold. --cru121
 * Font-size reduced. Bold removed. Image height reduced to 400 from 450. Check my sandbox again. More names now wrap, but still not enough to be significant. &rArr; Faltout (Contribs • Message • Email ) 14:53, November 19, 2018 (EST)
 * Just fine imho. -- &rArr; Cru121 (Contribs • &uArr; top &uArr; • Email ) 16:21, November 19, 2018 (EST)


 * I think those images are way too large making the page way too long. Please trim the size back to 300px tall or less.  Don't need to have the names at all, just update the links (using the alt) for the images to take the person to the item instead of having a popup of the name (that doesn't show on mobile because there is no hover) that people have to click on. &rArr; DDOstream (Contribs • Message • Email ) 10:14, November 21, 2018 (EST)
 * I don't understand what you are suggesting. allows you to show a default image in case the correct image can't be loaded. How would that help to display the links to a dozen items in one image? As for mobile, the wiki doesn't work well for mobile anyway. Popups do work (tap, hold and swipe), but elements all over the wiki are not optimized for mobile. &rArr; Faltout (Contribs • Message • Email ) 13:05, November 21, 2018 (EST)

Just a heads up that when the item page has " |pic = ", the Nopic template can't function correctly inside the cosmetic DPL and we end up with the image but not the pages where it comes from. I removed this Nopic from a cloak, but as far as I can tell, all the new items that Tech13 entered have it and it. I would suggest removing Nopic from all the pages and placing it internally in the Named item template. &rArr; Faltout (Contribs • Message • Email ) 07:42, November 30, 2019 (EST)

Categorization issues
Hi, could you please take a look at the changes happening in Template:Quest, Template:MissionInfoBox and Template:History? As I describe here: Template talk:Quest, the changes to the categories applied by the templates and specifically making the different categorizations the same, have made it much harder to automatically pull quests and calculate favor. To elaborate, in order to calculate the total favor of a patron faction, I would need to change the DPL templates and add extra parameters from all the pages that use them to filter out the unwanted pages. This would also add extra load on the wiki parser. For the moment -and because I hope that the changes will get reverted- the patron pages (for example The Twelve) and the Favor page do not have quest lists or favor totals because of the category change. As for Template:History, removing the pages from Category:History and placing them in subcategories has made filtering out historical pages from DPL lists harder or even impossible (because it depends on the choices of the user that places the history template). Thanks. &rArr; Faltout (Contribs • Message • Email ) 14:23, July 26, 2020 (EDT)
 * As you know, arguing is hard. What kind of historical DPL stuff do you think will be affected? Looks like all items should land in C:Historical items; what else is there with DPL impact? Maybe we can go through various history stuff and make sure that the subcategorization is something that we can work with, and then someone fixes the DPL stuff to add the new categories. Maybe improve the usage of T:History to include a list of subjects so that people don't get too creative. Regarding that other thing, I replied on template talk quest, let's see how it works. &rArr; Cru121 (Contribs • &uArr; top &uArr; • Email ) 02:33, July 27, 2020 (EDT)
 * I do not have an exact list of pages that would be affected. Guide to Free to Play has been affected. The list for the Coin Lords would have also been affected if they were not gone. Level 1 quests would have been affected if the quest template did not check for an undocumented history parameter before applying the level categories. Those are fixable if I exclude the following categories "Category:History" (for pages that did not have the "type" parameter set), "Category:Historical quests" (which is a subcategory of "Category:Monsters by quest") and "Category:Historical Quests" (because the one that applied the history template chose to capitalize the first letter of "Quest"). However, what about the future? Let's say someone wants the "type" parameter of the history template to be "tutorial quest" or "journal entry" or "bugged quest" or whatever. We would then need to exclude those new categories as well and to do that, we would need to add the exclusion to each page that wants to exclude them because the template is designed to be able to be used for history quests so we couldn't exclude everything there. As for items, while Template:Named items category allows the use of "notcategory" (which I see you added), none of the pages even exclude history items. If they were, you would need to exclude "Category:History", "Category:Historical items", "Category:Historical Items", "Category:Historical itemss", "Category:Historical reward items", "Category:Historical epic itemss". Frankly, given that those things are not present in the game anymore, I don't see why would anyone need those categories. Having everything under one category makes it easy to filter everything out now and in the future. Even if someone wants to have those categories, my proposal (and edit) that got reverted was to have everything under Category:History AND any subcategories. &rArr; Faltout (Contribs • Message • Email ) 05:56, July 27, 2020 (EDT)
 * How has Guide to Free to Play been affected? Level 1 quests is not affected, if your complaint is there are some new undocumented parameters... Document them, or wait until a couple day after they're created to complain. When a parameter is added, it's a good idea to wait 2-7 days to make sure the change fully propagates through the job queue before documenting to make sure bugs are ironed out first.    is a subcategory of , as should be  ,  , etc...  If we see things like   we can either just go to the pages listed and fix the parameter input OR we can wrap the parameter in the template with a   to force it lower case (which I've  as it seems like a logical solution).  It's not a hard fix... As far as  ,  ,  , etc go, it'll be up to us to decide if they're valid or not and add them as sub-categories of the appropriate sub-category of  or just change the parameter to be correct.
 * As for items, are you complaining that Named items category doesn't exclude history or lamannia only items? If so, we can certainly fix that.  They only need to exclude, as that is the only valid name.  If there are errors in the template parameter inputs, we'll fix that when we see them show up in Special:WantedCategories.  Having everything under a single umbrella of "C:History" makes it impossible to filter out a specific historical thing from a list of other historical things.  Everything in sub-categories doesn't need to be redundantly placed in the parent.  If you really want to filter your way, just use : " If you put a "*" before the name of a category, DPL will add all DIRECT subcategories of that category to your statement. Using TWO asterisks ("**") will extend the tree search to two levels. This provides some minimal support for hierarchies of categories. " and it will filter everything in History two sub-categories deep...  &#x1f45f;&thinsp;ShoeMaker (Contribs&thinsp;•&thinsp;Message&thinsp;•&thinsp;Email )&thinsp;&#x1f45f; 09:11, July 27, 2020 (EDT)
 * does not work. This only works on the  parameter. As for the other things, I believe I've covered everything in my post above. &rArr; Faltout (Contribs • Message • Email ) 11:00, July 27, 2020 (EDT)
 * The documentation says it should work as "notcategory 	Much like the category parameter, but requires that every page listed not be in a particular category."... /shrug I've been using the existing (maybe undocumented) parameters to filter things out, and I seem to be having no issue with that.  Just curious, why did this discussion end up on Cru121's talk page instead of the more appropriate DDOt:AN?  &#x1f45f;&thinsp;ShoeMaker (Contribs&thinsp;•&thinsp;Message&thinsp;•&thinsp;Email )&thinsp;&#x1f45f; 08:56, July 29, 2020 (EDT)

Bump. I'm waiting on an answer Cru. I keep seeing erroneous favor totals in the favor and patron pages due to the historical quests not being in one common history category with everything else. I don't want to keep seeing erroneous listings, but I prefer a period of transition where I know what's wrong than making unstable changes to exclude new categories and leave holes for future mistakes that nobody is going to notice. So, I am really waiting for you to agree or disagree at least on the simple matter of placing pages with the history template under the history category. &rArr; Faltout (Contribs • Message • Email ) 21:57, September 5, 2020 (EDT)
 * is a metacategory and as such should not have any articles directly in it. If you need a broader subcategory of that filled with specific subcategories, go for it.  Putting everything that can be classified as history into a single category is useless.  It's like putting every page on the wiki directly into .   &#x1f45f;&thinsp;ShoeMaker (Contribs&thinsp;•&thinsp;Message&thinsp;•&thinsp;Email )&thinsp;&#x1f45f; 09:25, September 6, 2020 (EDT)

unwarranted deletions
Cru121 needs to learn not to make unwarranted deletions and justify them by claiming it was spam or vandalism, then quickly deleting so as to remove the proof that it was neither spam nor vandalism, and if fact was just something Cru121 didn't like personally.

Show some integrity. — previous unsigned Please sign posts using ~    comment by 99.203.40.173 (d&thinsp; &#124;&thinsp;r&thinsp; &#124;&thinsp;b&thinsp; ) &#32; at 05:15, September 4, 2020 (UTC)
 * I've [ restored] this to give you an opportunity to discuss the content on the talk page. At a quick glance, it does seem to be some kind of spam nonsense - especially coming from a random IP editor instead of a logged in/registered user; however, as there are no links to outside sites in it any place, I see no harm in it being available for discussion.  Cru121, if you still think it should be deleted - please tag it with Delete and we can discuss it's usefulness on DDOwiki and give this random IP an opportunity to verify/explain better. I'd recommend the IP editor [ create an account] moving forward to make it easier to connect with them on their talk page. Thanks  &#x1f45f;&thinsp;ShoeMaker (Contribs&thinsp;•&thinsp;Message&thinsp;•&thinsp;Email )&thinsp;&#x1f45f; 11:00, September 4, 2020 (EDT)
 * I don't think this wikipedia needs information on how an unstable vaultie distributes duped otto's boxes to random strangers -- &rArr; Cru121 (Contribs • &uArr; top &uArr; • Email ) 11:45, September 4, 2020 (EDT)
 * Agreed. Remove this crap &rArr; Christopher G Lewis (Contribs • Message • Email ) 14:45, September 4, 2020 (EDT)


 * At Shoemakers's invitation, I have registered an account to discuss the matter of my original post and Scu's unwarranted removal. please note that I love wiki's but gave up editing years ago because of the 'pissing-contest' element that lurks among some, after spending an entire month battling edits about a beach community's founding date I finally realized that sadly wikis can become more about the individuals than the content. That said, I posted about the phenomenon of the blessing in a clear, unbiased form. I made no assumptions in its intention but seeing how it was growing and impacting new players daily and I was getting questions or gossip about it from mates I did some research and posted my results. I would point out that I also felt comfortable posting it as SSG has let the thread complaining about otto boxes run for weeks now, so they clearly see some value in the issues being discussed and known to the player base at large. The fact that this Remremi toon has been giving away stones and adventuring with characters in the open for weeks during evening hours certainly suggested it was possibly with SSG's blessing as many suggested to me in my chats with others. But whether with or without SSG's blessing (no pun intended) the same scenario has been allowed by SSG to play out multiple times a day and it is not being hidden in discord or other off-platform chats, but out in general server chat. I would also point out that there is a very subversive, handing out stones seems to draw attention to the issue much as the massive thread on the forums did. There is almost performance art air to the entire thing, much of the dialogue I have heard about is identical and varies little and the name of the toon never changes. All these are the reasons I thought it deserved to be catalogued on this wiki for players of DDO, and catalogued in a bare facts non-biased way that provides said players with information and whatever background comes to light. I waited for a week to see if anyone would post about in on the wiki after I couldn't find info on it here myself, and only undertook to make a posting after seeing it grow but not be covered here. As I said before I don't do wiki anymore which is why I posted from IP for this one occasion and was very careful about how I posted, after seeing my 'epeen' concerns confirmed by some editors it is unlikely I will post here again. I thank Shoemaker for allowing me to discuss the issue anyway, and it would have been rude not to take up his offer.

Now in the assumptions and actions of the other editors:

1) from his comments and the familiarity of terms in them it is apparent that Cru121 has a personal investment or personal 'score' somehow wrapped up in the issue and seems to think he has some knowledge others do not. Counterpoint: I went and checked the vault threads and as of yet no one there has claimed credit for the Blessings or the stones, and may I point out that those animals on the Vault would claim credit for the sun rising if they could.

2) Stones are being given out, not otto's boxes as Cru121 stated in his later attempt at justification. 3) We do not and cannot know if the stones are duped as some editors piping in here have rushed to assume, is it likely? certainly, can we be sure they are as SSG has let the Remremi character hand out stones for weeks? no we cannot. It is not outside the realm of possibility that SSG is providing them, or that a well-healed account is bought them to distribute sans-astral shards. We cannot know, suspicion is not confirmation.

4) It is very possible that it is a guerilla PR campaign in that multiple parties who received stones told me they were advised to buy an XP potion to used it and prepare for the Changling and Fey update.

5) If we cannot prove that it is duping we need to approach the matter in a way that does not glorify or degrade the issue and instead deliver the info we can confirm so as to provide DDO players with the information that they have come to depend on DDOWIKI and Shoemaker to provide them.

6) I am willing to let this matter drop in that I have already wasted a day looking into and then writing about it, not to mention the insult of Cru121's highhanded and subjective deletions, and the time I have had to spend writing this. But I will ask all editor to take a deep breath and set aside whatever psychodrama is running in their heads and make decisions based of wiki priciples of fact and reporting, not opinion based reflex.

Thank you all for hearing me out.

Ed Rasche.
 * I don't believe anything like this has been going on. If you can post some pictures proving those discussions are taking place, then we can add this in the Glossary as a note of common player communication. Other than that, something needs to be remarkable to be mentioned in the wiki and I don't see how something like this fits the criteria. &rArr; Faltout (Contribs • Message • Email ) 18:57, September 4, 2020 (EDT)

&rArr; Dywypi (Contribs • Message • Email ) 06:20, September 5, 2020 (EDT) &rArr; Dywypi (Contribs • Message • Email ) 14:31, September 6, 2020 (EDT)
 * Apparently it was some reprobate giving away potentially duplicated 'Stones of Experience' to random wet behind the ears low level Characters. It won't be direct marketing by SSG that is for near certain; as the wording was extremely thinly veiled. There were also references to certain individual players, some which have been banned, etc. It's likely an elaborate hoax, using misdirection and the culprit is pretending to be a "Robin Hood" type character. Doing such acts allows them to widely distribute their ill-gotten gains to unsuspecting players thus reinforcing and spreading this "folktale", allowing them to be painted as some kind of generous hero to the players.
 * I think everyone missed what I said... This is not the proper place to discuss this. Please discuss it on the appropriate talk page for the article itself or on the administrators' noticeboard if it's that big of a thing.  Currently, I haven't had time to look into what it is or could be at all, so I'm completely neutral - but it needs to be talked out in the appropriate place.  Also, if there are discussions on the forums related to it that might help someone like me understand the context, please link those in the discussion on that talk page... Thanks!  &#x1f45f;&thinsp;ShoeMaker (Contribs&thinsp;•&thinsp;Message&thinsp;•&thinsp;Email )&thinsp;&#x1f45f; 13:09, September 5, 2020 (EDT)
 * There are currently several threads on both the DDO Forums and the Parody Forum that rhymes with the words "DDO Vaunt" regarding the rumour. I'm not placing links to them because it's about a mysterious Character allegedly giving out potentially counterfeit products, to random people, which would indicate why someone (e.g. Cru121) may have deemed it as an unworthy article. If it is an official DDO marketing stunt; it's a huge failure on several levels, and doesn't - currently - deserve any special attention anyway. On this page we're discussing a logical edit; not specifically about an unimportant page, that covers someone giving away items via a Trade window. I'm sure most long-term social players have used the Trade window before to freely give or trade, with other people things they think the recipient would possibly like, etc. &rArr; Dywypi (Contribs • Message • Email ) 05:47, September 6, 2020 (EDT)
 * Then you're saying that DDO wiki:Welcoming project is also not valid because it's just someone giving away items via a trade window? &#x1f45f;&thinsp;ShoeMaker (Contribs&thinsp;•&thinsp;Message&thinsp;•&thinsp;Email )&thinsp;&#x1f45f; 09:21, September 6, 2020 (EDT)
 * I don't have much clue as to why you are discussing anything other than a logical edit done by Cru121‎, which appears to have been done in good faith, but got a response by another party that disagreed, whom also aired their personal views about Cru121. Should you want to discuss such things as supporting distribution of counterfeit products, the tales of a fictitious Robin Hood? Or even or promoting "DDO Dupe Store" possibly create a new page with hyperlinks to the official Dupe Store (using a reliable source) or something, etc. This page [User_talk:Cru121] itself; is probably not the best place to be conducting such in-depth discussion as it's not overly productive and possibly making a mountain out of a molehill. God gave us two ears and one mouth, so we can hear twice as much as we say.
 * Furthermore like I said earlier (above) it mentioned specific player names (some banned, etc.) and "the wording was extremely thinly veiled", etc. Refer to Cordovan's response: . As a rule, I prefer to think before speaking. :-)

&rArr; Dywypi (Contribs • Message • Email ) 00:01, September 7, 2020 (EDT)

User interface
Please don't take seriously the 'You don't say!' statement in my edit in User interface. It is intended to be a joke. &rArr; MrLizard (Contribs • Message • Email ) 10:26, September 14, 2020 (EDT)


 * Haha, np :) I realize it's not the best introductory sentence, but I thought I needed one. Feel free to improve it. &rArr; Cru121 (Contribs • &uArr; top &uArr; • Email ) 13:20, September 14, 2020 (EDT)

"Valued" categories
Hi Cru, just a question: Is it really useful to create categories like "Insightful fortification +42% items" ?

I personally would look for "Insightful fortification items", because I never know the actual values but search for "the best" option at level XX.

Have fun &#9874; User:Corgrind (Contribs • Message) &#9874; 22:45, February 9, 2021 (CET) &#9874;
 * Welcome Corgrind. I think you might be right. The individual category pages might be fairly unimportant in this case. It's just that the Template:Fortification adds these categories automatically for around 10 years now. Maybe consider writing on the talk page of that template if you feel that this level of categorization is not necessary. Anyway, the good news is that Category:Insightful Fortification items exists as well; even though it probably does not include all the information you expect. &rArr; Cru121 (Contribs • &uArr; top &uArr; • Email ) 02:38, February 10, 2021 (EST)
 * Yes, it is useful. It acts as a filter once you figure out from  which is the power you'd like to have to see only those items.  &#x1f45f;&thinsp;ShoeMaker (Contribs&thinsp;•&thinsp;Message&thinsp;•&thinsp;Email )&thinsp;&#x1f45f; 11:51, February 12, 2021 (EST)

Named item set template experiments
What are you trying to do? If you plan on changing how the template is structured, I propose you also reduce data duplication (the template and the item set pages). In addition to that, a listing of the items that belong to the set in the popup could also be helpful (if it doesn't create too much clutter). I would achieve that by having a page/pages that use a new template to show what the set does (exactly like Named item sets) as well as a short description (optionally). Then when an item calls the Named item sets template (with the name of the item page to prevent categorization during transclusion), then I would use DPL to get the set's short description (or long if short is not available) and the items that are in the set's category. &rArr; Faltout (Contribs • Message • Email ) 09:43, August 21, 2021 (EDT)


 * My primary goal was to allow for alternative presentation(s) of set data, for pages like Might of the Abishai. Generating Named item sets automatically would be nice, because updating it is a pain in the ass. I don't understand the thing with short/long description. For item pages, I don't think item list in set popups is necessary or practical. Ah and I also wrote a few words about this on discord. &rArr; Cru121 (Contribs • &uArr; top &uArr; • Email ) 11:15, August 21, 2021 (EDT)
 * I see. I don't think we need separate pages for each set instead of the all-in-one we have now. My proposal was not to generate Named item sets automatically, but rather have the page be the source of data for the template (instead of the template having a long switch for each set). The long/short description is meant to address some long effects that do not "fit" inside a pop-up (like Way of the Sun Soul vs. ) &rArr; Faltout (Contribs • Message • Email ) 02:58, August 22, 2021 (EDT)
 * I see. One thing worth mentioning is that I grabbed the set data from an external source (and I hope I could periodically update/overwrite it en bloc). Merging any local changes (for example, short description) would be an additional complication. But possible I guess. &rArr; Cru121 (Contribs • &uArr; top &uArr; • Email ) 08:11, August 22, 2021 (EDT)
 * So, what's your opinion on my proposition? Should I start working on those templates or just leave it as is? It would require the development of a new template, the changes to the old one, a complete rewrite of Named item sets and changing the template calls in the item pages to prevent categorization from transclusions (unless we employ a different way to prevent them by defining a variable in the named item template and using that variable to detect if we are inside the template or not - I don't have access to that template though). Given the work, you can see why I'd like some approval before realizing it's not wanted. &rArr; Faltout (Contribs • Message • Email ) 15:49, August 22, 2021 (EDT)
 * I think we should create a template for sets. If we do it right, we can cover item and filigree sets with the same template. Since this sets are no item, the categorization can easily avoided by using the namespace as filter. For things like this it's really important to cumulate categorizing in one section and do not spread it over the whole template. (this habit gives me some headache while reviewing the spell lore and spell power templates which need are real overhaul together with the related &rArr; Corgrind (Contribs • Message • Email ) 16:29, August 22, 2021 (EDT)
 * As evidenced by Item:Kor Kaza Rune, where we had to manually suppress the categories because of the transclusion of a range of effects, categorization based on namespace is not enough. You need a stronger solution like I did in T:Journal entry InfoBox (by using the page name), or by setting a variable in the named item template to enable categorization before calling the effect templates and then un-setting the variable when you are done calling the effect templates. As for categorization in a single place in the template, I agree. &rArr; Faltout (Contribs • Message • Email ) 03:28, August 23, 2021 (EDT)
 * Three points: 1) If we can reduce duplicate editing, let's do it. 2) Filigree sets are included in the data: . 3) Have you noticed the table view? &rArr; Cru121 (Contribs • &uArr; top &uArr; • Email ) 01:45, August 23, 2021 (EDT)

I personally think that we are escalating into issues based on the behavior of this wiki and its editors:
 * 1) Ok, I'll start with the templates soon. 3) Yes, I did. This table view will be what the new template will look like. The difference would be that instead of pulling the data from the template's page, it will look like  &rArr; Faltout (Contribs • Message • Email ) 03:28, August 23, 2021 (EDT)
 * That's not what I thought of when entering the discussion. I think of a page template for sets. with with numbered params for the set steps and using the templates for items; we need to add legendary and artifact bonus type of course (anyway) and the page shows a list of items based on a category for each set
 * Here are some thoughs in that context: I will go a bit off topic here but I think it’s time to reflect the whole situation. (may be a bit unsorted)
 * a) Much of the content may be better stored in a database; and a (any) wiki even when using templates is just suboptimal. There is a reason why Wikipedia created WikiData.
 * b )Our Editors tend to create pages / templates with a "jack of all trades" attitude, which usually results in overloaded pages straying from their topic
 * One symptom is the overuse of popups and their content (tl’dr).
 * c) Both also lead to massive data duplication.
 * Regarding the topic a): #dpl is able to create a page list from a category and then process the template parameters of each page. Should work with a single dedicated page too.
 * Here is the link to the topic of this threat: If this is working we can use pages as data source in a database style (quality of the template ensured). And so it makes sense to have pages for each set bonuses
 * For all editors start to stay on topic e.g. not stray into topics of other pages. Readers ARE able to follow links
 * Reduce popups to their basic information, no flavor text, and only an overview – should result in no more than 3 lines, defauls on linked page (which have to be complete ofcourse)
 * One of my favorite bad example is the popup for augment slots in items (too big and always incomple)
 * Hope you don't mind me to be this exhaustive &rArr; Corgrind (Contribs • Message • Email ) 15:00, August 23, 2021 (EDT)

Let me see if I understand what you are saying: 1) You do not like long popups, you prefer links to the effect description, 2) You do not want data duplication, 3) You want separate pages for each set instead of an all-in-one page, 4) You say #dpl is able to create a page list from a category. Let me respond to each: &rArr; Faltout (Contribs • Message • Email ) 15:42, August 23, 2021 (EDT)
 * 1) I do not like long popups either. I also think that the augment popup is useless due to its size. However, I disagree with removing the popups from the item effects. Checking what each effect does is part of examining the multiple effects an item has and opening multiple pages to get a complete picture is undesirable. Wikipedia also has the ability to preview pages when moving your mouse over a link which gets you a short description of the term without the need to go in depth. I find this behavior as well as the effect popups useful and I myself use this functionality often.
 * 2) Both Cru's idea and mine will remove the data duplication for the effect description. Currently, the data exists both in the Named item sets page and in the Template:Named item sets. Cru intends to replace the data in the page with the table view of the template. I intend to replace the data in the template with data pulled from the page. In order to do what I intend to, the data needs to be structured in a template (thus the new template I'm proposing). My reason for choosing the page instead of the template is that editors feel more comfortable to edit the page instead of the template and thus updates would happen more often.
 * 3) I disagree with separate pages for each set. I'm not opposed for a set to have its own page, but I'm opposed to removing the set consolidation. I have looked for sets in the past and I found that one page to peruse for something interesting is useful. I can get behind a loose level split (1-10/11-20/21-30 or 1-20/20-30) or an adventure pack split, although I don't think it is necessary and some sets span across multiple packs. If you are looking to create a page for each set to make the template work, this is not needed. Given adequate information (encapsulation in templates, sections, labels), we can transclude only the relevant parts of pages so an all-in-one page would not be an issue (see below).
 * 4) DPL can do more than get a page list from a category. It can select articles based on used templates (what I intend to do here) and it can also perform a regular expression match with the template's content. So, in this case, dpl would be able to find the set's definition by getting the pages using the template, including only the template's contents and performing a match for the set's name. In case we don't split the page and we know where all the definitions are, we can remove the dpl call and instead use Labeled Section Transclusion, which is simpler and faster.

Short: Then you have several advantages:
 * 1) I like to keep popups short; that does not generally mean to obmit them
 * As I wrote above there is this tl;dr limit which can be assumed at 3 lines/short sentences (from hard earned job experience). And you may have noted that there is a small delay on the popups on Wikipedia which we don't have ;-) Also the popup frames could be more fitting to their content size
 * 2) One of your solutions keeps the data within a template; that means that no average editor can update that information, like you said. The other solution still keeps the long page which is basically not maintainable at some point
 * 3) I like separate pages based on templates and use a list to compile an overview page
 * I also believe that most editors don't like to edit in long overloaded pages. Your comment is inconsistent: You say you disagree, then you say it's ok. If you agree on an own page for something you will have duplicate data if a consolidated list is not derived from that "own pages".
 * 4) That #dpl browses categories is commonly known; what I mean is: can you access a single page (based on a template) with #dpl by name and such access the parameters. If yes you can do something like this: Create a template with name of a page a parameter (for example "Named item sets!...") and in the template use #dpl to fetch all necessary information from the referred page. Unfortunatelly my POC is missing
 * a) you have a single data instance (the dedicated page)
 * b) on that dedicated page you can back loop to a category using this attribute/set/whatever. So you have a desciptive page which also contains a list of related pages
 * c) you still can derive any needed list from that data pages via categories
 * d) You can compose a popup just from the referred page name
 * And a final 4) I really get the feeling that you are into something like #dpl fetishism. And I really believe that we should not create code on that complexity level if not needed. Also I have the (very subjective) feeling that the wiki gets slow in recent times. I don't know if it real and if what's the reason (maybe the many additional categories) but we should keep an eyes on the used resource (which could be quite high for your proposed solution) &rArr; Corgrind (Contribs • Message • Email ) 16:51, August 23, 2021 (EDT)

Ok, so we agree on the pop-up front. We should provide short descriptions for each set effect that don't omit information, but are not fully descriptive either. Let's move to #2: We agree that the current situation where the data is kept in the template is not editable by the average editor. I don't see why the long page becomes not maintainable though. What is different between one page with multiple entries and different pages with single entries? As for my agreement on the page for a set effect, the template Cru is currently creating is supposed to present the same data fit for a single page. I do not intend to change that. The template we use to show pop-ups in the items could also be used to display full information in a single page. No data duplication. Furthermore, I don't think that editors don't like editing long pages. In fact, I think that adding an item to a page that already contains similar items is easier to an editor than searching for a similar page to copy its code. For example, in the Favor page, the data about each patron is compiled from each patron page. When editors tried to edit the favor page to add a patron reward, they faced a dpl call they didn't understand. I had to add a comment saying where the data comes from. The same goes for each quest page when trying to edit the monsters or items. You are proposing that we do a similar thing where the consolidated list that users will be looking at will not be editable. Given that there is nothing more to each set than its description and the items, it's not necessary to have it in a stand-alone page compared to a monster page or an item page. If there was something more to a set (for example Legendary Green Steel items), then it should have its own page to discuss the matter in detail. Finally, the dpl: My reasons for what I'm proposing are certainly not "I want to use DPL, so how can we make it so". It's true that as a programmer those kinds of projects spark my interest more than something less complicated. That's not a reason not to take my arguments at face value. And my arguments are: Reduce data duplication because the wiki is small and editors rarely update the data in multiple places. Have one page because it's useful for readers. Have that one page be editable instead of other pages because that's what editors usually try to edit. &rArr; Faltout (Contribs • Message • Email ) 03:47, August 24, 2021 (EDT)
 * I move that discussion to discord; It's no longer something to be discussed in a user talk. Personally and as admin I strongly oppose any solution based on a big list may that reside in a template or a page &rArr; Corgrind (Contribs • Message • Email ) 13:37, August 24, 2021 (EDT)

After a discussion in discord, it seems the main point of contention is "single page vs. multiple pages and auto single page". We were not able to reach an agreement, so I moved the discussion to Talk:Named item sets. Please vote there and notify anyone that might be interested in that. &rArr; Faltout (Contribs • Message • Email ) 16:25, August 24, 2021 (EDT)