User talk:Mjoll

Heya Mjoll, excellent work on the maps. I have already uploaded a map for The Red Fens, but I kept the original base map I made with no annotations on it in Paint Shop Pro format. Do you want a copy of this map? I can convert it to any format you like and make it available on a website for you to download and do whatever you want to it. UltraMonk 02:03, June 29, 2010 (EDT)
 * Much appreciated UltraMonk but I specialized in quest maps so I let the more gifted ones, image editing wise, handle the maps for wilderness areas, right now I'm waiting for the Carnival pack to be added to the DDO Store *rubs hands in excitement* by Mjoll 02:41, June 29, 2010 (EDT)

Question
Hey how does one change the file name on these maps anyway? Or what's the best way of going about it? Delphis
 * Upload the same map under a different name. And if you think the files no longer in use take too much server space ask one of the admins (Borror, Yoko, Xevo) to delete them for you. I think it's only them and maybe a few select others that have file deleting rights. - Mjoll

Maps
Hey, I edited two of your map due to having a lever in the wrong place on the map. I hope you don't mind. Delphis
 * Thanks but please don't edit my maps but rather let me know if you notice that something is missing or in the wrong place and I'll make the changes myself. - Mjoll

Retrieve the Stolen Goods
There's now a new chest guarded by several blades in Retrieve the Stolen Goods - the blades cover pretty much the entire south alcove behind the hidden panel in the northeast room, with the box on the southern wall. - LrdSlvrhnd 02:44, November 19, 2010 (EST)
 * Thanks for the heads up, I'll update the map in a couple of hours. I'll go over the release notes for U7 to see what else has been changed/added but I might miss a thing or two so please let me know if you notice any other changes. - by Mjoll 04:16, November 19, 2010 (EST)

Update 8 Maps
Hi Mjoll, not sure if you already worked on the Update 8 maps, but as I worked on finalizing the new Quests information for Update 8 I as well uploaded the loading screens and Maps for those Quests. If you want to convert them into your format including your legend feel free to do so. I can even give you the source files of them. -- SisAmethyst 11:25, November 21, 2010 (EST)
 * Operation: Blockade Buster
 * Operation: Siegebreaker
 * Operation: Summerfield
 * Operation: Undermine
 * Thanks, perfect timing... I was just about to start uploading them, I'll probably finish posting the maps with all the map markers and stuff in the next hour. I've finished them a while ago but I got caught up with other stuff so I was unable to post them in time. - by Mjoll 12:02, November 21, 2010 (EST)
 * One remark thou, you may want to add the following things to the map --SisAmethyst 14:34, November 22, 2010 (EST)
 * Operation: Siegebreaker: there is a black magic wall that blocks your way at several stages when a medusa is spawning, maybe at least include the spawn points of the semi-bosses
 * Operation: Undermine: mark the minefield and the boulder, maybe the 2 semi bosses as well?
 * Operation: Summerfield: mark the 3 gates and that the boss enter through the center gate. There are some more guards as displayed in the map ;)
 * I've marked the minefield and the boulder from Undermine but the magic barrier in Siegebreaker is not important enough to be worth marking on the map. The gates from Summerfield are landmarks and I don't mark landmarks (the same is true for bosses, mini bosses and chests). You were right about the wounded guards from Summerfield, some of them are randomly placed, I'm working on figuring out which ones are random and which ones aren't.- by Mjoll 12:31, November 24, 2010 (EST)

User Edit Award...
It's says you got more then 500 edits....ummm I looked at your contributions and it say over 1000. Shouldn't your award say 1000? Just a note. :)

First Strike Map
First Strike, the first part of Assault on Splinterskull... your map needs to be changed so it's the same as the other ones for that chain; it's currently missing the trap in the western storeroom. - LrdSlvrhnd 23:52, December 12, 2010 (EST)
 * Thanks, new map uploaded. Odd though since the storeroom trap was marked on my backup file. by Mjoll 03:40, December 13, 2010 (EST)

The Tide Turns Map
For the first trap (the one to the far north), the trap box should be on the other side of the hallway (same place east-west, just on the north side instead of the south). The third trap (the one to the east), the trap box should also be on the north wall.

Getting tired of me yet? *g* -LrdSlvrhnd 22:43, April 26, 2011 (EDT)
 * I ran the quest 3-4 yesterday and it turned out that the boxes are random, if I were to guess I would say that each of them has at least 3 spawn locations. I'll edit the map later to reflect that the boxes are random and not fixed.


 * Tired? Not at all, keep them coming if you find more map related disparities. by Mjoll 08:41, April 28, 2011 (EDT)

Spawning/Respawning monsters?
What's that even meant to mean? I mean I notice you have it on a TON of quests, many of which definetely feature zero respawns. Well respawns in the sense they give you a source of unlimited kills as is the most logical trueist definition I can think of to use on the wiki. or even 'spawning'? I mean technically every single quest in the game that has monsters - Has them "spawn". Some quests they spawn the moment the quest loads, others they might trigger later.. But either way I have no idea how that is useful information to the reader without it being expanded upon to explain exactly what spawns where and when and why its important to know (which you generally dont do)

Stormcleave for example definetely has zero respawns. And 99.9% of the monsters available in the quest spawn the moment the quest loads - the few that don't are from the optional pit at the end, which is hardly useful or relevant information to the viewer.

If anything, it seems like telling the players there are respawns, when there certainly aren't, is mis-information. Shade 05:48, July 18, 2011 (EDT)


 * 'What to Expect' notes are meant to be short compared to the 'Tips and Misc' notes that can go on and on for dozens of lines. The former are meant to be concentrated bits of information that follow a standard, are light on spoilers and allow players to make an impression in 5 seconds on what they are going to find in the quest while the latter are heavy on spoilers, can take several minutes to read and follow no standard.


 * I use 'Spawning/Respawning' instead of 'Spawning' and 'Respawning' to keep the information short. For example if I were to go into details on how spawning works in Stormcleave I'd have to write too long of a note, explaining how the skeletons spawn in waves when you approach the giant and how the mephits spawn when you activate the rune pillars, an explanation which is more fitted under 'Tips and Misc'.


 * Also I use 'Spawning/Respawning' to keep the information concentrated. Some quests have spawning monsters, some have respawning monsters, some have both and 'Spawning/Respawning' covers all situations. An alternative would be to use '(Re)spawning' but I prefer 'Spawning/Respawning', the slash is important because it can connect the two possibilities or it can eliminate one of them. And in quests that feature spawning monsters but don't feature respawning ones I let the player eliminate the 'respawning' possibility.


 * Another reason I use that standard is because different people have different definitions for 'respawns'. You say Well respawns in the sense they give you a source of unlimited kills as is the most logical trueist definition I can think of to use on the wiki. Which means that we agree that some of the fire elementals in Taming the Flames respawn but we disagree on the mobs from Kobold Assault or Gladewatch Outpost Defense being respawns since they eventually stop respawning and stop being a source of unlimited kills.


 * And then there are the nuances, like unlimited amounts of monsters spawning from portals, monsters that stop spawning once you destroy the portals. Do they count as spawns? They should because they don't respawn anymore if you destroy the portals. Do they count as respawns? They should because they keep respawning if you don't destroy the portals. Which leads to headaches and I can avoid those with the 'Spawning/Respawning' solution. by Mjoll 14:03, July 19, 2011 (EDT)


 * Yea I get what your saying. Tho still don't really get how it's useful information at all for a page like stormcleave. But not gona mess with your format since you seem to have that section pretty much under control. I'll just use the main tips section to expand upon what you wrote there for quests where I think its useful to know exactly what your getting at by saying spawns. Tho in the case of stormcleave I still really have no idea, my guss is the gate at the end i spose, which spawns a few waves of different enemies. --Shade 07:19, August 15, 2011 (EDT)


 * For Stormcleave it's those waves of skeletons plus the mephits (12 of them I think, 2 for each rune pillar) and they add up to 25-30 spawning monsters which is 12-15% of the amount of monsters you have to kill to get the conquest bonus. by Mjoll 08:29, August 15, 2011 (EDT)


 * I guess so.. But don't get why that matters. They are all required kills, so not like anyone would miss them regarding xp bonuses. If anything it might confuse them thinking, ok there are some respawns somewhere according to the notes, wonder where?.. Yet there aren't really.


 * Plus technically the skeletons aren't spawns, or even waves imo: -The moment you enter the quest, every monster (or most) spawns in, you cant see this ofcourse in most quests.. Tho its noticable sometimes in epics, as you see that epic ward pop up momentarily in the distance. In stormcleave, it includes the skeletons.. Just there default spawn position is in the collapses state, then they stand up when you get close. They aren't waves either since you can actaully get them all to stand up together, just run all the way up to Pious.


 * So in the most technical sense, the only post-start spawns are the mephits and the optional gate. And theres no respawns at all. So i dunno why not just type "spawning monsters", seems more helpful then having respawning or spawning in there.


 * What I consider respawns, re portals you can destroy: Yea. As long as there is a source of unlimited kills - even if you have to perform some arbitrary action like not kill something specific or do some objective. Thats my prefered definition, as every quest in the game where that happens, conquest is available. (usually if its some absurd about of kils required during that section il note it in the xp bonus notes)
 * But yea to keep that section short we can put this in the tips part where its relevant. --Shade 09:06, August 15, 2011 (EDT)


 * Why it matters if I mention that there are spawning monsters in this or that quest? It's a way to warn the players that there are ambushes in that quest or that they shouldn't go afk in Taming the Flames or on the bottom floor of Wiz King. Sure, they don't know where exactly these monsters are (the disadvantage of keeping the 'what to expect' section simple) but that's what the 'tips and misc' section is for.


 * As I said before, spawning/respawning covers spawning, covers respawning and covers spawning + respawning. It has a generic role in order to avoid hair-splitting when it comes to portals that can be destroyed/can't be destroyed that spew out limited/unlimited amounts of monsters or ambushes or monsters triggered by a dialogue option or monsters that spawn when you pick up a quest item or you pull a lever and so on.


 * You are getting too technical. For me a spawning monster is one that is triggered by a script (the end fight in Bring me the Head of Ghola Fan) or by player proximity (the ambushes on the bottom floor of Wiz King) and that usually is not visible until triggered (so the stone golems and the earth elementals in Rainbow would not count as spawning monsters). Of course there are monsters for which staying hidden until they notice you is very common (scorpions and maybe bats too) so if we were to talk about those we'd go back to hair-splitting... by Mjoll 10:15, August 15, 2011 (EDT)

Standards: Chests Info
Noticed your edit. I know you like to standardize things. And thats cool.

My opinion on use of colors tho: But I don't think it's gona be useful if it makes the chest section look like a big jumble of colors that not everyone will understand what they mean at a glance, thus waste time trying to deciper something thats otherwise unneccesary.

I think the best use/purpose of the XP colors template is to save screen space for lines that are otherwise gona be too long to fit in a box, or the page.. So in the case of XP, it helps them fit in the box. or the case of some raid boss templates, fit info on a single line.

That and we should try to minimize the use of color on quest pages as much as possible to look more professional.. I did put some in recently, mainly to match the ingame example for some of the text.

For chests, really the short Normal: X, Hard: X, Elite: X, format fits just fine on a single line. So i'd go with that. Epic is often not different except I like to note the location of the epic chest, and if it replaces a chest or is in addition to one.

And regarding standardizing it in general: Seems like a good idea as long as it doesn't remove useful infromation in the process. --Shade 07:16, August 15, 2011 (EDT)


 * The colors are temporary, I don't intend to turn the quest pages into psychedelic nightmares, that's why I stopped after testing them on the Schemes of the Enemy page.


 * I haven't worked with templates before so I had to make do with the xpcolors template. My plan is to keep the popups and get rid of colors and playing cards symbols once I figure out the code behind the templates. by Mjoll 08:28, August 15, 2011 (EDT)


 * Colors or not it's gona just be even more confusing to those who don't know about the templating. 1/3/9 reads as 1 or 3 or 9.. So they might think, mm ok up to 1 or 3 or 9 on normal depending on something.. And not know about mousing over.


 * Just seems pointless to use pop ups for data that otherwise just fits perfectly fine in the given space. It's like your purposely hiding data and making one work to read it. Seems they should be limited to adding additional data that otherwise won't cleanly fit in a given space. --Shade 09:41, August 15, 2011 (EDT)


 * The 'bonus xp' section uses a popup template too. And that one uses colored popups and playing cards symbols and doesn't show the difficulty. And since the colors and the symbols are hidden it doesn't bother me at all.


 * It can be confusing for 3 seconds, I don't expect the learning curve to be longer that that, as long as you have a mouse you can find out what 1/3/9 means. And there are only 3 numbers, one doesn't have to hover over them every single time, it shouldn't be that challenging to remember that the first number is for normal, the second for hard and the third for elite. There is not going to be a value for solo/casual and the same is true for epic, no popup for it, I'll handle that differently. by Mjoll 10:35, August 15, 2011 (EDT)


 * Think your vastly over-estimating your averages viewers technical knowledge. If theres no blantant MOUSE OVER HERE FOR INFO in there face.. It wont be 3 seconds for them to randomly try it, they will never try it and move on. Mouse overs for text aren't exactly common thing on most websites, so why would they even think to try? For pictures sure. alt text for images is a web standard (Once the wiki interestingly doesn't support, and also was not for pop up purposes, was for backwards compatibility for browsers that dont support images). Text... nope.


 * Honestly I didnt even know text pop up were even possible in wikis to the extent we use em here until i really got into the wiki. Your average user wont have a clue, they will see some text and not think twice. Anyways i think its a bad idea, might wanna check with the other sysops and wiki regulars to get more opinions before you start editing lots of pages using it. --Shade 11:16, August 15, 2011 (EDT)


 * My two cents: *most* quests, at least that I've come across, don't have extra chests on higher difficulties. I dunno if that's a change that's being made more common with the most recent packs, but certainly the majority of (granted, low-mid level) quests that I've done haven't been like that.   That said, mousing over isn't going to be a standard thing to do on a quest page, like it would be on an item page where it's extremely common.  Also, unless you have an extremely odd screen resolution or massively magnified text... "One on Normal, three on Hard, and nine on Elite" isn't going to take up that much room.  Less than a single line, really.  Probably room for "Normal: Xn minimum, Yn possible; Hard: Xh minimum, Yh possible; Elite: Xe minimum; Ye possible" to account for rare encounters. -LrdSlvrhnd 15:49, August 15, 2011 (EDT)

So this imaginary wiki visitor can read, can use a computer, can make an account for and play a game like DDO, can find and use the wiki but lacks the intelligence or the interest to move their mouse on pages that are usually full of links and that occasionally use colors to draw attention and, if they will never find the popups, they will never figure out what 1/3/9 means. Assuming this totally peculiar wiki visitor exists... Someone else said on the wiki that there is a limit to how much you should help stupid people and that you will end up making it harder for the people that are not stupid if you try to cater for the lowest common denominator rather than to the real average visitor.

The kind of people you are talking about are not reading the wiki or the forums, they are the type of player that builds their characters based on advices they get in general chat from strangers in the harbor or in the marketplace. If it's just about finding out that mousing over some text displays additional info then the average viewer doesn't need technical knowledge, just a minimal amount of reason, memory, curiosity and some intuition so they can put one with one together. And the average visitor has all of those, they could figure out what the numbers mean even if there were no 'normal/hard/elite' popups. I consider the average wiki visitor intelligent until proven otherwise.

Yes most quests don't have more chests on hard and higher difficulties and not even all epic quests have more chests on epic than they have on normal difficulty.

It's not as much a way to make information take less room than it is to avoid repetition, that's what templates do. By going from

'Normal: 1 minimum, 2 possible; Hard: 2 minimum, 3 possible; Elite: 3 minimum; 4 possible'

to

or to

the information is compressed, made less confusing to look at, kept in a simple form, repetition is removed and none of the original information is lost. The 'cost' is that for a small number of quests 3 of the most commonly used DDO words are placed in popup boxes. by Mjoll 02:23, August 16, 2011 (EDT)


 * I consider myself fairly intelligent yea.. And the first few times I visited the wiki, like item pages especially.. I did not occur to me to just randomly mouse over every bit of text listed to search for hidden clues. To me that seems very arbitrary and goes against everything i've learned from web browsing. So I looked thru many pages and may have never learned about popups ever until I saw one appear whne I was trying to click a link. Since these aren't links, I would have never even tried. It's like the text at the top of this box - if it never said temps on hover, I would of never knew about that stuff. So yea sorry you area REALLY reaching if you believe every wiki user would have some kinda intuition to do something very arbitrary thats otherwise very non-standard web practice. So yea I disagree, your format is much MORE confusing to look at. Theres no need to compress information that otherwise fits into the regular space.
 * If you really believe im wrong, just do a post in the offical forums, ask 10 random people to visit the page and ask them what they did without any clues. I'd bet none/few of them will reply with "moused over every suspecious bit of text searching for hidden clues"

--Shade 07:05, August 16, 2011 (EDT)


 * I did a survey, I asked not 10 but 12 players and you can see the results of the survey here. Either all 12 are wiki geniuses and your affirmation about vastly over-estimating your averages viewers technical knowledge. If theres no blantant MOUSE OVER HERE FOR INFO in there face..  stands or all 12 are normal wiki visitors and your affirmation doesn't stand. by Mjoll 15:05, August 16, 2011 (EDT)


 * I would personally rather see the card symbols and/or colors.. They are a standard across the wiki and understood by most that visit by now.. I would never expect a user to mouse-over something, unless there was something different about it like a symbol or color that says "HEY!  Look at me, I'm different!""  From the survey that was done, it seems that some of those people knew from some other source or had run it themselves to know the answer.. Just my opinion though..  -- ShoeMaker 17:38, August 16, 2011 (EDT)


 * Survey doesn't really follow what I asked you to do or proove.. You didn't accertain if they moused over anything, or if it was intuitive to do so, and in fact with the one you followed up on said they didn't, and simply got that the 3/6/9 meant n/h/e. You just happened to question 10 knowledgable enough individuals (or friends, or yourself, a mean a doctored up jpg with all the names removed isn't exactly proof) to understand the often used x/x/x =n/h/e format, as thats often used in the game for LFMs and other things. I'd bet if you disabled the pop up, and asked the same thing to players of similar knowledge, they'd all get it right too. So while most users familiar with the standard h/h/e formating will get it, there will be a few that dont..
 * And even if they all do. There's still no advantage to the format and 3/3 wikivips/sysops aren't seeing the advantage either. And yea if we have to have one or the other, i'd also agree with tehcnical that the colors are more intuitive. Tho id prefer just plain typing it out. --Shade 18:03, August 16, 2011 (EDT)


 * Doctored up jpg? Drop the 'you are lieing' part, you are going too far.


 * I didn't do the survey at your request nor did I read your request before doing it, you just happened to ask for one the same day I did it. It's not the first time I've asked for feedback from other people before adding something to the wiki. The people I asked are guildies and are a mix of new, old, casual and hardcore players. I don't know how many of them ran the new quests on Lama but I'm almost sure none of them pulled the answer from memory and it is likely that this was their first visit on that quest page.


 * When I did the survey I wanted to find out if they can extract the '6 chests on hard in Schemes of the Enemy' information or if they can't and they think that you can find up to 1 or 3 or 9 [...] depending on something as you said. My intention was to see if they are as... lacking as you perceive them and not to find out if they moused over the numbers or if I used their favorite color or font.


 * Do you think that every single visitor knows that they get additional information if they mouse over the xp colors in the top right corner?... Do you think that every single visitor realizes that there is a connection between the colors used there and the colors used for the in-game adventure compendium or that the card symbols are there for the color blinded people?... Do you think that all the people that now know those things figured them out seconds after the xpcolors template was applied?... I don't yet I think that the xpcolors template is well done and that they can figure out the X/Y/Z format with or without the extra information. The same format used for my template, the often used x/x/x =n/h/e format, as thats often used in the game for LFMs and other things to quote you.


 * Can the xpcolors template be decompressed (so you have access to all the information without having to mouse over it) while keeping a reasonable size for it? Yes. Does it look better in its present form? Yes.


 * You say that they simply got that the 3/6/9 meant n/h/e which is different from what you said a while back: 1/3/9 reads as 1 or 3 or 9.. So they might think, mm ok up to 1 or 3 or 9 on normal depending on something... It looks like the average wiki visitor got smarter in the last 48 hours, they went from needing the information displayed like '1 on normal, 3 on hard, 9 on elite' to not needing it anymore; they don't even need the template, X/Y/Z will suffice.


 * As for using symbols and colors... Attention is drawn to the chests template by the use of bolded numbers. I would rather not use colors, they look good in the quest info box but they would look odd in the middle of the page. I could use the card symbols though they are lacking when not used in combination with colors. by Mjoll 03:24, August 17, 2011 (EDT)


 * I never said you were lying. A "doctored" jpg doesn't refer to one filled entirely with lies, it refers to one that's been altered/edited from it's original form, and thats obvious. I don't think you lying are at all. I said it wasn't really proof of anything relevant to what I asked, which it isn't. Especially since it was just your guildies, and one would assume you would want your guildies to be smart/knowledgable players, which they seemed to be. It's relevant to the point that knowledgeable players understand the x/x/x = n/h/e format, which is good.

And when I said "might think" x/x/x = x or x or x.. I didn't mean to infer thats what I thought the knowledgable players of ddo visiting the wiki would think.. I meant that some (likely new players) might get confused and think, and imo it's better to be clear as possible when the alternative isn't that popular.

Anyways disagreements on what users will understand aisde: The format isn't neccessary as the data otherwise fits in the collapsed format. Can't make it any clearer then that. But your the admin, so if you still think it's a great format/idea, go ahead with it. --Shade 05:56, August 17, 2011 (EDT)


 * Unlike bolded text, card symbols say, "Hi there is something special about me, mouse over to find out more.." Bolded text, when you can tell it is bolded, doesn't do that..  So, you could use the symbols with the popup text..  -- ShoeMaker 10:01, August 17, 2011 (EDT)