Template talk:NPC

This was based on the Infobox-monster template, and was modified to allow a standard template for NPC's. Taurolyon 20:34, November 17, 2010 (EST)

Please don't break this template
It took me a few edits, but everything works now.. , please do not break the coding.. Thank you ShoeMaker (Contributions • Message) 03:20, April 3, 2012 (EDT)

Hypocritical imo. You're new revision looks more broken then mine. Yea I know my fix had issue with collapsible fields, but it wasn't "broken", it had xtra unnecessary spacing yea - but still looked better. The weird non-standard double spacing xhtml you're messing up the template with looks horrible. I doubt anyone would disagree. Why/how could you think that's at all acceptable. Such massive wastes of space between each line makes our site looks awful. Shade 03:31, April 3, 2012 (EDT)


 * The spacing is exactly how it was before I started, I just made some fields collapse if empty. It is simple to make it single spaced..  Replace all instances of

with . As a side note, I just spent an hour trying to find where it says, DO NOT CLOSE &lt;br> TAGS LIKE &lt;br />!!!!!! It doesn't exist on any of the wikitext styling / syntax pages on wikipedia or wikimedia.. Which leaves me back to my default of close ALL tags when making pages to be viewed on a web browser. You can feel free to use &lt;br> to your hearts content. I'll continue to have my bot go through every once in a while and fix them all. ShoeMaker (Contributions &bull; Message) 04:16, April 3, 2012 (EDT)


 * I smell an edit war-a-brewing, quick all the kobolds get into into the root cellar! Yawgmoth 04:51, April 3, 2012 (EDT)



You didn't look very hard. Our very own editing guide has always said you don't need to use them: Help:Editing.

or how about our template. Part of its purpose is to convert html to wikitext.. What your doing is the direct opposite.

Yea it doesnt really matter which you use.. But the bot edits your making to chage them are utterly redicules.

Where does it say that? Common sense. Your making thousands of edits that have: -Zero effect on the html of the site. -Zero effect on the page display -Lots of effect on wasting server space, server load, and your own personal time.

And no, the npc template didn't have that ugly spacing before your edits: https://ddowiki.com/index.php?title=Template:NPC&oldid=96183

And theres no editwar here. Tech already fixed the spacing issue, so thanks for that Tech.

edit: Actually single line breaks aren't desireable either as they mush things a bit too close together. There still quasi html and wikipedia says to "use sparingly". Most properly wikitext use is just to space the lines out - makes it the easiest to read and cleanest. If you really want to use html to produce the exact same spacing, go nuts i guess.. The html code for that is  (paragraph). (and no is not neccesary, the wiki software inserts that automatically.)

Oh yea just checked Help:Editing, actually is valid wikitext, thought it works differently then html. Shade 05:04, April 3, 2012 (EDT)


 * Perhaps I should clarify. Find me a source outside of the pages on this wiki that you have had a hand in editing.  Preferably from the guys that wrote the WM Core.  I suspect that those pages were double space because of the fact that things looked smooshed. I can try to add something like:

body { line-height:150%; } to the top of the template and see if it helps. Or maybe even dump all the text in the page into a Text. ShoeMaker (Contributions • Message) 09:14, April 3, 2012 (EDT)

Small change required
I would like to ask the people who are more versed with the wiki code than me to change one entry in this template, and add another.


 * First, change the  |patron  tag to say "Affiliation" instead of "Patron", and allow multiple entries by removing the automatic link. This will allow us to add more lore information into each NPC page (Eg, like linking Chief Eechik to the Clan Gnashtooth Kobolds), the info do not become redundant with the quest page (and solve issues like the same NPC giving out quests for two different patrons, like Cydonie), and cut off some dissonance because some NPC is linked to one organization, but their quest is linked to another one (Like Gatekeeper Trakash is one of The Gatekeepers, but his quest gives Jorasco favor).
 * Also, except by losing one hyperlink (that can be fixed with a bot), this don't break any NPC page.
 * Second, I would like to have an extra camp below "Bestow quest" that read "Receive quest". For most quest NPCs, this camp is redundant because the same quest giver also provides the quest reward. But as I keep registering the journal entries that appear across the game, walk-in quests (like the ones in Menechtarun) don't have a "quest giver". Some like Beyond the Rift actually are bestowed by one NPC and delivered to another one. And then there is the journal entries like Refuge in the Storm.
 * To not break template, this can be an optional camp (just like "Bestow quest") that is suppressed unless you actually add it to the page. I intend to make a second pass after I finish doing the first rough sketches in all quest givers to fix this one.
 * Third, can you make the Race entry automatically link to the " race" page, like the Monster template?

Thank you in advance. Nibelung (Contributions • Message) 10:50, August 1, 2015 (EDT)


 * What do you think of the version of the template I have in my sandbox? The parameters with numbers at the end can have any number of them added. If you think it would be better to not autolink and/or just have one parameter for certain things let me know. I know changes will require updating all NPC pages, but I can handle that. &mdash;&thinsp; Zav &thinsp; (T·E·C) 18:12, August 1, 2015 (EDT)
 * That's a great way to do that Zav with the forargs. Location should be a forargs as well and I'm wondering if instead of an inline list like you have it, if it would look better for when there is three or more entries to have it be an unordered list instead. I'll let you play with that idea and if you get stuck I'll poke at the idea as well. :) I think autolinking is essential to wiki growth, and I would oppose removing that feature of the template. ShoeMaker (Contributions • Message) 19:31, August 1, 2015 (EDT)
 * I considered an unordered list, but I figured we wouldn't really have that many. I can have it switch from inline to ul for 3+ uses. I will add additional location parameters. I'm not going to autolink the locations so that additional text, such as near xyz, can be added. &mdash;&thinsp; Zav &thinsp; (T·E·C) 10:39, August 2, 2015 (EDT)


 * I have updated my sandbox. All the forargs parameters now use ul if 3 (2 for location) or more are specified. &mdash;&thinsp; Zav &thinsp; (T·E·C) 14:23, August 2, 2015 (EDT)
 * Looks good to me, but looks like you missed the Vendor camp. I don't mind removing those, instead expanding their inventory in the description below, plus the categorization. Just checking if it was intentional or not. Nibelung (Contributions • Message) 22:33, August 2, 2015 (EDT)
 * How exactly will it work for vendors? Will we be able to list the things they sell as a div-col (width based on number of entries and width of entries obviously). ShoeMaker (Contributions • Message) 16:12, August 3, 2015 (EDT)
 * Right now, I have no idea why this camp exist. Some NPCs have it as a Yes/No message, others have a list of what the NPC sell. So, yeah, it is kinda of a useless entry right now, and I have no problem getting rid of it altogether. As I said, I just wanted to be sure the removal was intentional, or if it was an oversight. Nibelung (Contributions • Message) 18:38, August 3, 2015 (EDT)
 * It should certainly exist and be a list of wares where appropriate (obviously pawn brokers would be just a 'yes'). ShoeMaker (Contributions • Message) 19:27, August 3, 2015 (EDT)


 * I think it looks good, although I'd like a separation between killable monsters and NPCs; otherwise, you might run into MM problems. So, for instance, Hobgoblin would have the current Creature Entries and a second "NPCs" list below that, which would include Gatekeeper Trakash.  No idea if that's something that could be automatically categorized based on being used in an NPC template vs. a monster template...   LrdSlvrhnd (Contributions • Message) 22:54, August 3, 2015 (EDT)
 * The current NPC template do not automatically link to the " race monsters" category. I'm not sure if we should add a " race NPCs" category, and if we do, we should check manually all the NPCs that uses the Extra template to add a second or third race, like most dragons (Cydonie, Kear, etc). Nibelung (Contributions • Message) 09:05, August 4, 2015 (EDT)
 * Yeah, I understand that... I was referring to your third request. If that's done, I'd like NPCs to be separated from monsters, if possible.  I like the idea, but I don't like mixing NPCs and mobs.  I'd rather have them not in the category, than mixed in 8-} I know when stuff like a new MM proposal is being talked about (both on the PC and on the forums, so I don't think I'm breaking any confidentiality here *g*) people immediately look at the wiki and go "Max Hunter requires 60, but wiki only lists 58, either release more in the same update or change the number!" or "Max Hunter requires 60, and there are 104 listed, you might want to bump that up!"  So, if possible, I'd prefer NPCs to be listed separately; and if not possible, I'd rather have them not get categorized at all. -LrdSlvrhnd (Contributions • Message) 02:50, August 6, 2015 (EDT)
 * I can neither confirm nor deny that PC members look at the wiki and go "Max Hunter requires 60, but wiki only lists 58, either release more in the same update or change the number!" or "Max Hunter requires 60, and there are 104 listed, you might want to bump that up!" ShoeMaker (Contributions • Message) 03:13, August 6, 2015 (EDT)
 * I understand. But you don't need to be worried. I just wanted that when a Race: Kobold appear in the page, instead of going to the Kobold page (that is an individual monster), it goes to the Kobold race page (that list the racial stats and lore). It should not add the entry, and thus, should not affect the MM count. Nibelung (Contributions • Message) 09:18, August 6, 2015 (EDT)
 * Ohhh, OK, I misunderstood entirely! ...I gotta stop doing stuff when I should be going to bed... *g*  (And Tech, if I didn't also see it when they hit the forums, I wouldn't have said anything! 8-} ) (I've also used it myself when going through my MM and realizing I was just one or two types away from a completion, and I didn't want be confused myself... *g* ) - LrdSlvrhnd (Contributions • Message) 13:36, August 6, 2015 (EDT)
 * NPCs are not being added to a category based on race; they are only linking to it. Categorization of NPCs by race could be done (separate from monsters). &mdash;&thinsp; Zav &thinsp; (T·E·C) 12:43, August 6, 2015 (EDT)
 * New request, this time an easy one. Three new camps: Farshifter as an Yes/No camp (default no), Spirit Binder as an Yes/No camp (default no), and Trainer allowing entry with yes (not recommended), no (default), or a class name. Those entries should automatically list the NPCs in the appropriate category for each one (linked in each camp name).Nibelung (Contributions • Message) 16:38, August 8, 2015 (EDT)
 * Can any one NPC fit into more than one of those classes? I'd rather have one new parameter for class which could be populated with farshifter, planescaller, trainer, pawn broker, spirit binder, etc. ShoeMaker (Contributions • Message) 20:04, August 8, 2015 (EDT)
 * Unfortunately, yes. Brother Mirashai is a Farshifter and Spirit Binder. Trainers I think are exclusive in a single instance, but can fit multiple roles if they have appearances in other zones. Nibelung (Contributions • Message) 20:32, August 8, 2015 (EDT)
 * I have updated my sandbox again. Changes: allows for multiple races, vendor parameter changed to sells, and added role parameters for categorization. Note: Categories are linked in the sandbox to prevent the sandbox from being categorized. &mdash;&thinsp; Zav &thinsp; (T·E·C) 18:25, August 15, 2015 (EDT)
 * Thank you very much. I think that is all I need to work with the NPCs, and the template looks still easy to manage. Nibelung (Contributions • Message) 20:41, August 15, 2015 (EDT)

Template:NPC2
Zav... Please just update this template instead of trying to replace it with a new NPC2 template. We did that with dmg(2) once, and I remember it as being a mess. Open to discussion, thanks. ShoeMaker (Contribs • Message • Email ) 18:32, September 1, 2015 (EDT)
 * My only concern with just changing the code is that most of parameters currently in the template are not in the new version, so the information will not be displayed until the NPC's page is updated to use the new parameters. Just updating this template would be easier, but I don't know how long it is going to take to get through the 500+ transclusions. —&thinsp; Zav &thinsp; (T·C) 18:41, September 1, 2015 (EDT)
 * Make me a table/bulleted list and put the new template in T:NPC/sandbox and I'll make it backwards compatible as best I can and then merge the histories together. :) ShoeMaker (Contribs • Message • Email ) 19:39, September 1, 2015 (EDT)
 * I have added functionality for the soon to be historic parameters in my sandbox. NPC2 no longer needed. —&thinsp; Zav &thinsp; (T·C) 21:21, September 1, 2015 (EDT)

Clarification on use of Affliation parameter
The "|affiliation1" entry for https://ddowiki.com/edit/Zawabi_the_Elder_Djinni used to say "The Free Agents"

It was edited to remove this entry: ''(cur | prev) 08:22, May 23, 2018‎ Faltout (Talk | contribs)‎. . (10,010 bytes) (-15)‎. . (not a Free Agent member) (undo)''

Zawabi is, however, affiliated with The Free Agents (he grants Free Agent favor), even though he is not technically a member of the organisation. Based on my understanding of the parameter, "The Free Agents" should be listed as an affiliation. Based on Faltout's understanding, as he is not a member, the "|affiliation1" entry should not be used for this purpose.

The template descrption (|affiliation1  = ) does not give any useful guidance on this front.

Should affiliation1 only be used for affiliations, where the NPC is a member of that faction? Should affiliation2 and upwards be used for other affiliations?

Can someone clarify? and can the template descriptions be amended accordingly by someone who knows how the fields are meant to be used? -- &rArr; Glmfw1 (Contribs • Message • Email ) 12:20, May 23, 2018 (EDT)
 * My take on this is that the type of favor the quests give is clearly stated in each quest and it being in an NPC doesn't provide any useful info. Besides, when multiple favor types are present, a reader can't understand which quest gives what favor without going to the quest page. So I used the affiliation parameters as membership parameters to compile the faction member tables. Since an NPC probably is member of only one faction, using affiliation2 and up for whatever purpose would work for the member tables (they can safely ignore them) or a new parameter could be made for whatever purpose... &rArr; Faltout (Contribs • Message • Email ) 14:51, May 23, 2018 (EDT)

Roles
Hello, I am loving this template. Looks like it has taken some thoughtful work to put it together, so I say "Well done!"

What words shall I use to define the role1 of an NPC quest giver?


 * Quest giver? Quest NPC?  Quest bestower?

Also, is there a role1 that is essentially for flavor? Something that will cover the tavern bouncers, patrons, the "games of chance"...basically anything that is not vendor/collector, trainer, or quest related? Thanks in advance! &rArr; meander (Contribs • Message • Email ) 22:11, July 5, 2018 (EDT)
 * I don't think a role is needed for quest givers. I can update the template populate a category (Quest bestowers) when bestowsquest1 is used like is done for collects1 and Category:Collectors. Currently, no. I'm not sure that we should have special categories for NPCs that don't have an interactive purpose. I might be convinced otherwise though. —&thinsp; Zav &thinsp; (T·C) 02:15, July 6, 2018 (EDT)
 * Thanks for your prompt reply, Zav! I think I understand what you are saying: quest givers will be captured as a group through |bestowquest, so no need to define it through roles, yes? So I should leave |role1 blank?  As for flavor NPC's...as long as they can be created, I think what I want from them is satisfied. Roleplayers and writers of game-based fiction eat up these gems and can't always log into the game (guilty of writing while supposedly working =D) &rArr; meander (Contribs • Message • Email ) 10:17, July 6, 2018 (EDT)
 * NPCs will now be categorized in Category:Quest bestowers when bestowsquest1 is populated. (It will take some time for the existing pages to update.) —&thinsp; Zav &thinsp; (T·C) 22:52, July 7, 2018 (EDT)

Would it be helpful for the Collectors/Augment NPCs to be defined as a |role? &rArr; meander (Contribs • Message • Email ) 14:20, July 7, 2018 (EDT) Nevermind my last question, I see you have them =D.
 * We have Category:Collectors when collects1 is populated. —&thinsp; Zav &thinsp; (T·C) 22:52, July 7, 2018 (EDT)
 * Thanks! I just want to be sure data entered can be captured to do amazing things en mass. &rArr; meander (Contribs • Message • Email ) 23:01, July 7, 2018 (EDT)

Recent change to location
So, um, after the most recent change to the location parameter, do we really need to go through about 1000 NPC pages and change their locations? Perhaps what wanted to achieve with this change can be achieved in a less intrusive way? Or do we really need a bunch of categories named ? I was hoping that some other admin would notice this and discuss, but apparently (that does most NPC work) simply ignored the weird looking NPC page he was editing. By the way, there isn't necessarily a connection between each role and every location. Talbron Tewn has many roles according to his location (monster, NPC, trainer). He does not belong in a "Category:The Grotto Sorcerer trainers". &rArr; Faltout (Contribs • Message • Email ) 03:33, July 20, 2018 (EDT) Just a note that this change still has the issues I explained above. A good example being: Jeets Shimis. He belongs to 12 categories (all the combinations of location and role), while he should only belong to 3. Finding out which 3 categories are the correct ones requires changing all the NPC pages where this is an issue, which is why noone had tried to do it. Also, half the NPC pages are still broken (the location has links in it and this makes the category text to appear). Good practice dictates that a template change should not break existing content. The latest change should be rolled back. To accomodate the changed pages, location should show the location as is if it has no locnote and in the new way if it does. I agree however that making the role and the location of an NPC match is good. Perhaps we could number the roles according to the location numbers (it doesn't affect the quest bestower roles, but it's a start). &rArr; Faltout (Contribs • Message • Email ) 13:48, October 24, 2018 (EDT)
 * I'm sure I'll be doing some revision to the categorization of NPCs. C-Hound is aware that things like this are a process and take some time.  It sometimes takes templated categorizations to propagate through the system.  Be patient.  &#x1f45f;&thinsp;ShoeMaker (Contribs&thinsp;•&thinsp;Message&thinsp;•&thinsp;Email )&thinsp;&#x1f45f; 08:48, July 20, 2018 (EDT)
 * Ok, what will that revision be and what purpose will it serve? As I said above, perhaps there is a better way to do what you want without a manual update of 1000 NPC pages? For example, if your purpose is to collect the harbor trainers, no changes are necessary since a simple DPL call can already do that. If you want to collect all NPCs for each zone, this is mostly possible with small adjustments in some NPC pages. However, as long as you leave the changes half-way, editors and viewers will be confused creating chaos. &rArr; Faltout (Contribs • Message • Email ) 10:26, July 20, 2018 (EDT)
 * I want to have all NPCs categorized by location and role and cross referenced. Don't worry about it, no-one is asking you to edit 1,000 pages.  Your initial complaint was there were 1000 redlinks to ... There were four - and it was because they had no role.  I'll take care of getting it all sorted.  Relax.  &#x1f45f;&thinsp;ShoeMaker (Contribs&thinsp;•&thinsp;Message&thinsp;•&thinsp;Email )&thinsp;&#x1f45f; 07:36, July 21, 2018 (EDT)
 * You obviously did not understand my initial complaint, nor the problems with what you are trying to do. There are 2 problems: 1. To categorize all the NPCs by location, you will need to edit about 1000 pages. Until this editing is done, the pages will look broken. and 2. The categorization is currently wrong, because each role corresponds to a single location and not all the locations. I also asked a question, which you didn't answer: What is the purpose of that categorization? &rArr; Faltout (Contribs • Message • Email ) 07:46, July 21, 2018 (EDT)
 * You didn't understand the response, so go read it again. I answered your question and addressed your concerns.  I'll be editing every NPC, probably multiple times... Pages look broken because of the incorrect state of the NPC pages.  Anyway, unless you have NEW questions, I am done with this discussion.  &#x1f45f;&thinsp;ShoeMaker (Contribs&thinsp;•&thinsp;Message&thinsp;•&thinsp;Email )&thinsp;&#x1f45f; 09:32, July 21, 2018 (EDT)
 * You only addressed 1 concern, and that is "Yes, I will be editing 1000 pages". Kylea d'Cannith is still under the wrong category Category:Power Play Artificer trainers and when you edit Brother Mirashai, he will belong to "House Deneith Spirit binders" AND "House Deneith Farshifters". However, in House Deneith, Brother Mirashai is only a farshifter. The same will happen to Talbron Tewn. He will end up in "House Cannith Sorcerer trainers", when he is only a quest giver there. &rArr; Faltout (Contribs • Message • Email ) 06:41, July 22, 2018 (EDT)
 * I am confused. I would like to be helpful. I will continue to enter NPCs with the goofy template change and hope for the best. If there is something I can actively be doing that provides additional support toward the end-goal ( by re-editing |roles or |locations or whatever, as I go), let me know.  Cheers &rArr; meander (Contribs • Message • Email ) 14:34, July 21, 2018 (EDT)
 * I disagree that he only belongs in three. He should be in nine or ten different NPC by location categories.  Yes, some filtering still needs to be done, and I'll probably work on it some for wiki talk next week.  Stop being so impatient... We're all volunteers and things take time.  You're welcome to continue to discuss it, but don't word your posts in ways that attack other editors - not here, not on user talk pages, not on the Discord, not in the Twitch chat... Not anywhere.  Thanks.   &#x1f45f;&thinsp;ShoeMaker (Contribs&thinsp;•&thinsp;Message&thinsp;•&thinsp;Email )&thinsp;&#x1f45f; 16:53, October 24, 2018 (EDT)

Tutorial |role
Hi - can I put "tutorial" as a |role for NPCs? Korthos has some tutorial NPCs who are non-action interactive (Flavor =D). I have run across a few more over time, and tonight I put Kaltrop into the mix. He/It is the only one I have defined the role as tutorial. I can remove the role if it makes a problem. Many thanks &rArr; meander (Contribs • Message • Email ) 01:26, August 9, 2018 (EDT)
 * I have no problem with it personally if it is an accurate description. Will have to go through and standardize possible roles at some point. :) &rArr; DDOstream (Contribs • Message • Email ) 09:25, August 15, 2018 (EDT)
 * Good point about accuracy. I'll start a list and see if something more appropriate seems right &rArr; meander (Contribs • Message • Email ) 09:44, August 15, 2018 (EDT)

Re-order of "Sells"?
To me, if I look up an NPC for info, the location of an NPC is more important than the specifics of what they sell (which is probably already why I'm looking them up). Could we move "Sells" toward/to the bottom? For example, Taniera Grisvill has her location at least a screen down below what's visible on the opening page, which doesn't seem approp. It does seem more an expansion of "description". &rArr; C-Hound (Contribs • Message • Email ) 16:55, October 17, 2018 (EDT)
 * As I have been going through NPCs for location adjustments, I have been noting different inconsistencies. |sells is the most inconsistent.  I agree with C-hound, that when the items an NPC offers is listed out, it stretches out the template and makes it a bit unwieldy.  I agree that for extensive |sell lists it makes more visual sense to place it at the bottom of the template.  So, what does this mean?  Changing the master template will not re-align existing ones, right?  So that becomes a manual job (no worries,  you have me).  This brings me to another question I have been meaning to ask, which is this:
 * When an NPC has a rather unique or specific list of things that they will supply the player, either because collectables or money exchanges hands, where should that list be provided? I ask this while looking at the Collectable page, which has taken some people a pretty good amount of work to put together but requires manual updating, right? It seems to me the genesis of information is at the NPC template level, where |sells becomes the place to pull information from to generate growing and changing tables of information. Sorry if my question is mickey mouse level, I am not a computer person and I'm trying to figure out the flow of information. If we're going to use the NPC template for these tasks, then the Collectors, in particular, need to have the items they offer up in the |sells section -- many are in the |notes section. So currently we have double entries for the NPC and the Collectables pages.  Here, too, if we need a plebe to get'er'done, I can be said plebe. I did not want to embark on this task if there is no plan to harvest the information in this way.  So C-hound could, conceivably, check out a master table of Artificer vendors, where the NPCs, Locations and items offered are in one place, but it is generated from the T:NPC and grows as the game changes. Am I aiming in the right direction with this idea? &rArr; meander (Contribs • Message • Email ) 20:06, October 18, 2018 (EDT)
 * Also, I have used |description to put exactly what appears on the screen immediately below the NPCs name; all information formerly in this spot has been moved to |Notes. If this is not the intended use for |description... oops! &rArr; meander (Contribs • Message • Email ) 20:06, October 18, 2018 (EDT)
 * @meander: The wiki is full of duplicated information as most wikis are. Wikipedia can get away with duplicated information because of the massive amount of users and bots tending to each popular page. In this little wiki, having duplicated information indeed means that it will need several page updates for even the slightest update in the game. Collectable X no longer drops in Quest Y? You now need to edit the collectable page, the collectables page, the collectable guide, the quest page and any other page that may have mentioned this collectable and where it drops. There are also many pages that should not exist because the information is provided elsewhere (for example a dozen quest lists), but they are there because appart from the popular pages, this wiki makes it really hard to find a relevant page (search is no good and categories are a total mess). A solution to this is DPL (Dynamic Page Lists), which allow the gathering of content dynamically. DPL however has its limitations. 1. It can't fetch more than 500 entries (limiting the amount of items or NPCs you can fetch in some item/NPC lists). 2. It stresses the wiki server and also slows down the rendering of a page if poorly designed. 3. It requires a uniform format accross similar information which is what the templates are usually for. 4. Only a few people know DPL. This means that what you asked may be implemented one day or maybe not. It's especially hard when half the important templates are admin protected in an outdated state (for example this template or the Quest template or the item template). In any case, before you embark on a task to create "harvestable" information, the first thing that needs to be discussed is what is the best way to enter this information so that it can easily be used. This means: Where should each piece of information be placed? How does the template need to be updated? How do we need to utilize this information? What is the best format to write information so we can utilize it the way we want? Trying to do something without asking those questions first is what Technical 13 is doing and what creates this mess we have now. &rArr; Faltout (Contribs • Message • Email ) 03:58, October 19, 2018 (EDT)
 * Great answer... Right up until the unneeded personal attack. If you'd left that last part out, since you obviously have no idea what I actually do, you'd have has a great answer.  The truth of the matter is that I do ask those questions, but as you said, there is fragmented data and pages all over the place and even I don't know where all of it is.  So, I take the information that I know is wanted based on the information that I have, and I ask how I would want to see the information I know exists and where this information should be pulled from and how to organize it so that it can be best pulled from somewhere else.  This doesn't always work perfectly as intended the first try, or even the third try as people tell me "oh you missed this" or "oh you missed that"... So, I revise and work on it until we get it right.  Now, as to your complaint that It's especially hard when half the important templates are admin protected in an outdated state (for example this template or the Quest template or the item template)., there is no template that you can't simply create a /sandbox page to copy all the template code into and make changes and create a /testcases page to test those changes on.  Myself and the other admins work in a sandbox most of the time on those kinds of major changes (hence Template:Monster/sandbox; Template:Collectable/sandbox; Template:Quest/sandbox; etc - all should be using Template testcase TOC and be listed on Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:Template testcase TOC), so why shouldn't anyone else.  Currently, there are only 3 or 4 people who actively edit on the wiki who are not afraid of writing things with DPL and there are a lot of projects that need it to make useful lists, tables, galleries, etc.  Due to the nature of DPL projects, they often take many hours to design and implement, which is why I don't do much with them on 's DDOwiki Talk w T13 (ShoeMaker).  If you'd like to tune in to an episode near the start and suggest a specific thing to work on, having an idea of what it should look like and how it should work documented somewhere (IE Copy in the current template to the sandbox for that template and replace the   section with your thoughts on what it should look like and how it should work, then I'd be happy to work on developing it with you on livestream. :)  &#x1f45f;&thinsp;ShoeMaker (Contribs&thinsp;•&thinsp;Message&thinsp;•&thinsp;Email )&thinsp;&#x1f45f; 08:14, October 19, 2018 (EDT)
 * OK, so what I am hearing is:
 * the template IS the place to lift information to create dynamically updating tables of information, and these are the future of how to manage this wiki. How to manage duplicate historical information/pages, and whatnot, is .... not my concern (for today).
 * consideration needs to be made about how data is entered in order to make DPL work smoothly.
 * What questions/considerations need to be asked to move this forward? Specifically |sells as data for DPL.
 * Faltout volunteering his super skills to DPL the crap out of whatever I can do to the |sells.
 * My backup plan is to woo/bribe/grovel the heck out of Cru121.
 * Technical13 offering instruction for templates on the livestream so that we can make this work smoothly... which I would gladly do if it were not in the middle of my workday. I'll find a way to connect this line of help/communication so that I can be more useful.
 * If "where to find everything" in the game from NPCs/stores is not high on the need list, just let me know now and I will redirect my attention to some other task. &rArr; meander (Contribs • Message • Email ) 18:51, October 19, 2018 (EDT)
 * I moved |sells between |description and |notes. Let me know what I broke. &rArr; Cru121 (Contribs • Message • Email ) 01:19, October 19, 2018 (EDT)
 * Hey! That worked! &rArr; meander (Contribs • Message • Email ) 18:51, October 19, 2018 (EDT)
 * Couple comments: 1) I suck at DPL. 2) Glad this template change worked. 3) I generally don't see NPC pages as a priority. I just don't care about them. It's rare that I need to look out the dialogues of some obscure NPC. As for the sells parameter, I use the wiki differently, I look at Displacement page and hope to find there all info about how to get displaced, I am not going to search through NPC vendors and their inventory. And it kinda sounds like a PITA to maintain when something changes. For NPC, I usually just want to know where to find them, or maybe some obscure lore info. Or dialogues, but only if they are relevant to quest completion. -- &rArr; Cru121 (Contribs • Message • Email ) 01:14, October 20, 2018 (EDT)
 * I know what you mean by not directly using wiki NPCs, I think most people will agree with you on their limited use. However, NPCs are the point-of-sale -- in effect, they are the specific |location where goods are purchased. So, to my way of thinking, this is the point where information abut goods has to spawn in order to seed out DPL's. I imagine a One-Stop-Shop button on the wiki to open up a well organized supermarket - DPLS act as the aisles in the store - Wands, Scrolls, Potions, Augments, Hirelings, etc. and update when the new NPCs enter the scene. This make sense? I could totally be missing something. Like perhaps we template the |sells to stores... except where NPCs are standing alone somewhere, which is a lot of them (Collectors). Interesting problem to solve.  I hope solving it is what people want. &rArr; meander (Contribs • Message • Email ) 10:00, October 20, 2018 (EDT)
 * This sounds like an ambitious project. But I am not quite sure 1) Whether doing it is worth it. 2) If |sells parameter on NPC pages is the way to go. IF we wanted to this, I think the proper way would be to create pages Scroll of Cure Light Wounds or Wand of Aid - after all these are items. Then there would have to be a field for |soldby1, |soldby2, etc, where we would slap the NPC. DPL could then automatically populate vendor inventory. But ultimately this smells like a lot work, and I am lazy. In the end, I don't think readers are interested in seeing dozen vendors who sell a particular item. If they see at least one NPC that sells Wands of Aid, they can go to that vendor to grab it.-- &rArr; Cru121 (Contribs • Message • Email ) 15:52, October 20, 2018 (EDT)
 * Thanks for the feedback, Cru121. I am considering your idea of items with |soldby - a valid different angle; and giving thought to usage. If ItemWalmart gets built, will it get used? How many volunteer hours will it take to get it up and running, assuming at least one DPL-able person and one data entry person are willing to do the work? (this is me thinking out loud). I only tapped your shoulder because...  you respond with thoughtful answers =P. That and I saw you were looking into DPL, so you would know enough to be able to tell me if I am being ridiculous with this idea =D. Work aside (that never stops me), is it worth doing?  I ask this of anyone following this thread, not just the wonderful Cru121. &rArr; meander (Contribs • Message • Email ) 18:43, October 20, 2018 (EDT)