Talk:Experience point

Mistakes
Some formulas on here are wrong, such as the XP difference. This page claims a level 9 char in level 5 mission would have -40% xp, but in actuality it is -50%. Also, the fact that a certain difference (over 75%) causes you to get absolutely NO xp has been omitted. And, the conditions for non-violence bonuses are incorrect. 24.62
 * Thanks, and feel free to correct them. As far as I'm concerned I do not know the exact formulas. Tihocan 18:47, April 3, 2006 (EDT)

Re-entry: Leaving and re-entering a mission before completion (whether through death, recall, or exit) confers a 20% penalty for the first time, and an additional 10% penalty for each additional re-entry.

I thought it was -20% each time? Not 100% sure though. --Derickddo 11:26, February 23, 2007 (EST)

late entry
Edited that this is not entirely time based, even though the devs seem to say that it is (keep in mind how long the game is alive, at least some of them have to be new). I entered trial by fury with 4 others, all of us within 30 seconds and all over 10 minutes late so we all saw the 80% penalty. Even though the quest took less than 2 more minutes to complete there was no penalty at all at the end of it. If anything, the penalty seems more related to the quest progress, with 10 minutes being the starting point for seeing late penalties as you enter.

Nice revamp!!
Woah, nice Yoko! I wanted to do something clever out of that page.. good job!! :)

I've been told base XP on hard and elite is higher... I've got yet tested it or verified it... if you know the relation between the two, let me know!! :) Borror0 01:47, November 13, 2007 (EST)
 * ah yea base xp on hard/elite become different from norm. and someone on rowans thread said its 107.5% on hard 115.0% on elite but things dont seem like that simple as far as i studied. however, (hard - norm):(elite - norm) is almost always 1:2, it seems. yoko5000 03:49, November 13, 2007 (EST)

Something interesting


The Missing Party

Seems the optionals keep track of the repeats on their own. Neouni 08:16, December 23, 2010 (EST)
 * Ya. It was really obvious to us back during Module 4. Prison of the Planes was THE loot run then so eventually you would repeat it so often that the quest and the optionals would give you less XP than they once did. --Borror0 15:14, December 23, 2010 (EST)
 * Yeah, there's a note about that on the page... at least regarding repeating the optionals specifically. I'm not sure if the quest repetition penalty affects the optionals; probably should go do Bringing the Light or something similarly quick a few times to test that. EDIT: And having now done so, it *is* ENTIRELY independent of the quest repetition. -LrdSlvrhnd 18:52, December 23, 2010 (EST)
 * You inadvertently removed my previous comment. I just restored it. Also, I can confirm that optionals are independent of quest repetition. They follow the same pattern than quest repetition, however. --Borror0 20:35, December 23, 2010 (EST)

incorrect statement about xp banking.
ex. A level 18 player can attain 1,899,999 XP.

This is misleading, it is possible for a level 18 to attain that many experience points, however a level 18 is also capable of attaining the experience point cap without being required to take a level.

I figured I might let someone else deal with reworking the paragraph, or deciding how to present this information... 01:59, August 20, 2011 75.135.73.96

XP Banking Post U19

 * Note: A character can earn up to one point less than enough XP for 2 levels. For Example: A Level 8 Character can obtain up to 439,999XP (1 point less than the amount necessary for the character to attain level 10). Some players use this process (called “Banking”) to extend the time that certain quests provide XP (ex. A level 17 player can attain 1,709,999 XP. This allows the character to run all of the Vale of Twilight quests on Hard with no XP loss except from repetition). It also extends the length of time characters can spend with leveling groups (for instance, a level 17 can run quests with capped characters with no XP loss and can run quests with characters as low as level 14 without penalizing the XP of the level 14 character).***

The statement about a level 17 is currently incorrect (U19). I just completed a Quest in Twilight and rolled over to 1,711,080 at level 17. Level 16 still caps at 1,529,999. Catas 00:27, September 23, 2013

If you're level 18 you can go straight to level 20 and beyond, as the game doesn't cap the xp after you attain enough for level 20. (in other words, you can attain 8,500,000 XP at level 18, rather than stopping at 1,899,999). Once you pass 1,900,000 XP, the XP display resets to 0 and starts counting Epic XP, which has no cap. (Needs more testing: at least you can go directly from 18 to 21 and I'm currently sitting at level 18 with 11K Epic XP.→ Backley 05:41, October 1, 2013‎



I had similar experience like you, though it was not necessarily restricted to level 18. It is sometimes possible to continue gaining exp. I have tried to summarize my experiences in the sentence just below your edit. I don't think level 18 is a special case.→ Cru121 (Contributions • Message) 06:11, October 1, 2013 (EDT)



Better question: has anyone actually seen XP cap at all since U19?→ Backley (Contributions • &uArr; top &uArr;) 06:34, October 1, 2013 (EDT)



I don't understand the question being asked. Got two cap characters with all cap ED, but that is probably not what you are asking.→ Bladedge (Contributions • Message) 14:28, October 1, 2013 (EDT)



I moved this discussion here from my user page. Sorry, let me clarify: before, you could bank XP to 1 XP below banking 2 full levels, then your XP was capped until you took a level (doing more quests did not change your current XP total until you leveled-up). This isn't true now, but we aren't sure if it is a special-case of some kind or what. So the question is: can you currently get XP capped before level 28 by banking levels? If so, what are the new rules? I see Catas above claimed that level can 16 still cap but 17 didn't for at least one quest, but did it allow you to continue after that without leveling-up? I mean that currently in-game others have said that once you reach enough XP for level 20, there is no cap (until the level cap of 28) and you can bank as many levels as you want. Someone gave the example of their friend leveling straight from 18 to 21, and my current level 18 character has enough XP for level 20 + 11k XP.→ Backley (Contributions • Message) 19:33, October 1, 2013 (EDT)
 * I'm a rank and a half from level cap on ShoeMaker... I was going to hit level cap today (I'm level 9 rank 48), but that may not happen with the "scheduled maintenance". I'll let you know in a day or two. ShoeMaker (Contributions • Message) 08:37, October 7, 2013 (EDT)


 * Been like that since epic levels where added, you can bank 19, 20 will roll you over and you will start banking epic levels. I personally never tried how far you could push this. I just know you get epic and epic destiny exp. In the system before epic levels it would just max you out at 20 while thus banking 2 complete levels and appearing 18. Quest NPC's also see you as the banked level, strange anomaly. Might be handy in the current system where you can access epic quests and challenges unless it's a wilderness or old epic quest which still hands out tokens. (Side effect of Powerlevel exploit fix)→ Neouni (Contributions • Message) 12:20, October 7, 2013 (EDT)
 * I was looking for answers on here. Sorry about being an anon, but I am currently lvl 10 rank 56, sitting at 643,735 which technically puts me at lvl 12. I did use the 26k exp boost at rank 55 from the coin lord NPC in 3bc maybe that is why it didn't cap me? Delete this if you must, just adding my input. Hope it helps someone. — previous unsignedIcon tooltip.png Please sign posts using ~    comment by 72.220.101.231 (d&thinsp; &#124;&thinsp;r&thinsp; &#124;&thinsp;b&thinsp; ) &#32; at 21:18, September 18, 2019 (UTC)
 * "Additionally, once you hit epic levels, you can continue to accrue experience (up to the level cap) without taking levels" - Is this still accurate? I forgot to level up at some point, and once I finally did I was 1 XP away from the next level (26), and my karma didn't match the total XP... — previous unsignedIcon tooltip.png Please sign posts using ~    comment by 87.207.132.57 (d&thinsp; &#124;&thinsp;r&thinsp; &#124;&thinsp;b&thinsp; ) &#32; at 21:18, September 18, 2019 (UTC)

Pointless
The following part was removed:

EMET:

the above is patently false. I've crunched the numbers, and have found the real best way to get XP

the key lies in opportunity cost. suppose somebody does N, N, N, H, E, E. by doing H fourth, they avoid a -10% penalty. by doing E fifth, they avoid a -20% penalty. now suppose somebody does N, N, N, N, H, E. by doing H fifth, they avoid a -20% penalty. by doing E sixth, they avoid a -30%.

thus, our second example gets 20% more than the first.

IN SUMMARY the later you burn your first time completing bonus, the better. so... FOR F2P: decide how many times you want to do the quest. subtract two. do normal that many times, then hard, then leet.

FOR P2P: decide how many times you want to do the quest. subtract two. do leet that many times, then normal and hard (any order)

EXCEPTION: this only applies if you are avoiding penalties. thus, if you are only doing the quest three times, it is best to do it N/H/E (any order) also, I did not account for p2p's bravery bonus, thus a P2Per may want to do as many leet as possible to keep it. DISSENSION:

H gives more xp than N. response: based on "the kobold's new ringleader" quest, and only that quest, each level only gives an 8% increase. not enough to counterbalance even saving 10%.

theoretically, there could be a quest out there who's difficulty increases are enough to counterbalance the penalties. I could calculate how much of an increase you'd need, but frankly, I'd rather not.

Note: Due to bravery, the best way to farm XP is doing elite first. Then, do the difficulty you will be farming on many times. Some quests it might be faster on normal. Some quests it is worth to farm on hard. Some quests it is worth it to farm on elite. Farming on elite will give the BEST total XP due to getting repitition penalties later, and higher base XP. Then once you have done all your farming runs, do the 2 difficulties you have not done yet, and possibly casual. For example: shadow crypt with a good arcane is easy even on elite, and about as fast. So Ex12, H, N, C is the best way to farm. Von3 is quite difficult and generally slower on elite so E, Nx11, H, C might be faster experience.

The wiki page is not an appropriate spot for discussions or debates; that's what the talk page is for. In addition, the "above" was not "patently false" by any stretch of the imagination.

-- 192.219.237.56 05:04, April 14, 2012
 * You are correct in that "The wiki page is not an appropriate spot for discussions or debates", however, we do not flat out delete those types of contributions. We move them to the talk page, and we ALWAYS sign our posts with 4-tildes .  I have signed your post for you this time.  You may wish to consider creating and account or logging in to make such emotional edits in the future.  Anonymous users edits and posts are highly scrutinized and often removed without an explanation as to why, especially if it could be considered a controversial edit. Repeated modification is often considered vandalism and the user is quickly blocked from editing.  By having a user account, most of the system administrators are more likely to give you a benefit of the doubt.  We do appreciate all edits that are honest attempts to make useful contributions to the wiki (even the ones we have to revert because they aren't 100% accurate). Thank You -- ShoeMaker (Contributions &bull; Message) 10:17, April 14, 2012 (EDT)

Epic Level Additions
After all these years, my first contribution! I'm sure the format'll be changed soon enough, but I wanted to start getting some of the new Menace details up on the wiki asap. Please let me know of any notes I should keep in mind, or any new contributer information to look at. :)→ Ibby 13:37, June 28, 2012 (EST)
 * Welcome, and thanks for your future contributions! Don't worry, if you mess up stuff, someone will fix it :) Perhaps the article on naming policy can be useful read DDO_wiki:Naming_policy. --Cru121 (Contributions &bull; Message) 13:53, June 28, 2012 (EDT)


 * I've been finishing up TRs for the Stone promotion, so I've yet to work a toon up to level 21. I assume that, as with other forms of experience, Epic Levels use a cumulative total rather than per-level experience? If so, the 'Total' section needs to be removed from the Epic Levels chart. In the meantime, I've added in the total for the chance that that is not the case.

Suffice it to say, I really HOPE it uses the same system as the others.→ Ibby 18:01, June 30, 2012 (EST)

Bravery Bonus
I added a small note and link to bravery bonus, but didn't remove the note about U11 bravery bonus and streak bonus. My wikifu isn't great though so if something needs to be changed or updated let me know! Thanks.Bcpeterson (Contributions • Message) 16:17, July 12, 2012 (EDT)

Bravery Bonuses & Dungeons with both Heroic & Epic Versions
Comment: Our DDO group can only play once a week so we try to plan our dungeons and max experience. We may want to add something like the following to the main page to communicate the following lesson we learned regarding bonuses for running Epic verses Heroic content the first time:

Bravery bonuses can be significant adding up to 75% XP bonus on a 'Max Hard Streak' & up to 150% XP on a 'Max Elite Streak' for the first time through a given quest on Hard or Elite difficulty as required. These Bravery Streak bonuses can be further leveraged by choosing to run the Epic versions the first time completing quests that have both Heroic and Epic versions. For example, leveraging a max Epic Streak by running the Epic versions of The The_Druid's_Deep quests instead of Heroic versions the first time through the series can result in at least 400% XP as shown by the following example:

These bonuses would be even higher with other XP boosts like XP potions or XP boost items. If you have used a Tome of Learning the gains will not be as high as the Tome will apply to your Heroic content but not your Epic content as you need to be level 20+ to run Epic dungeons and the Tome stops giving bonus XP when you get to level 20. Note that the above is just an example and any Quest or Adventure Pack that has both Heroic & Epic versions where the Heroic versions can be skipped can be run on Epic the first time through can achieve these higher bonuses.

Please review the above and if no one disagrees I will be happy to update the main page. Nodoze (Contributions • Message) 15:42, October 24, 2012 (EDT)


 * That's some nice info gathering there. I was curious if epics gave more XP. Now I'm curious if this is always the case. Now I'm stuck with the quandary of my next life what to run and to avoid things like VON2/VON3. "Tauro" (Contributions &bull; ) 10:24, October 25, 2012 (EDT)
 * I updated the main page but left off "Note that the above is just an example and any Quest or Adventure Pack that has both Heroic & Epic versions where the Heroic versions can be skipped can be run on Epic the first time through can achieve these higher bonuses." I believe that is true but have not actually verified it...  I think maybe a new page should be created with all of the adventures which have both Epic & Heroic options for folk and to verify.  Will try to get to it myself but not able to right now. Nodoze (Contributions &bull; Message) 16:07, October 25, 2012 (EDT)
 * I can verify that the first time on the various epic difficulties is not affected by the repeat counter. If you ran down a quest on heroic prior and you attempt to repeat on epic the 2nd time, the counter will continue - with one exception, you are level capped - which freezes the repeat counter at its current place. "Tauro" (Contributions &bull; ) 16:16, October 25, 2012 (EDT)

New Epic level overlevel penalties
I don't have any level 26+ characters yet to test it out, but when I was checking the XP values of Storm Horns quests, I noticed that my level 25 character was getting 0 XP on heroic casual (quest level 18), -99% on heroic normal (quest level 19), but NO PENALTY at heroic hard (quest level 20). Could someone with a level 26, 27, and 28 character check how the overlevel penalty work with you on quests level 19 and up? And if possible, also checking powerlevel penalties (bringing a guildie of lower level) → Nibelung (Contributions • Message) 02:32, August 24, 2013 (EDT)

"No banked cap"?
Not sure what is meant by this recent edit:
 * As of Update 19 (?Iconic intro.?), it appears there is no 2 level XP banked cap. Verified for VIP account, banking of heroic quest experience (& daily dice) at level 10 and advancing to level 17 at a later time on a first life character.

If it's saying that Iconics can have (almost) Level 17 banked (and w/ daily dice xp gems surpass that), that's WAI. Also, the "?"'s should have been researched, and U19 linked. Happy to do once have definitive answer re intent of edit. &rArr; C-Hound (Contribs • Message • Email ) 17:04, March 18, 2018 (EDT)
 * There is, in fact, a two level minus one xp level cap on characters. The reason it is confusing is that there are certain things that break that barrier such as daily die XP stones, saga XP rewards, monster manual XP - which are all WAI, and certain quest optionals that seem to fly under the radar update after update.  I suppose it wouldn't be a bad idea to have a section on the page dedicated to confirmed ways of exceeding that cap - but may take quite a bit of work to figure out which optionals in which quests behave that way.  &#x1f45f;&thinsp;ShoeMaker (Contribs&thinsp;•&thinsp;Message&thinsp;•&thinsp;Email )&thinsp;&#x1f45f; 19:06, March 18, 2018 (EDT)
 * Had a level 10 wizard with banked XP up to level 17 ~Jan 2018 months ago. The majority of the banked XP was quest XP & currently have 3 level 16 wizards with banked XP up to 19.
 * My speculation is that the implementation of Iconic (that start level 15 banked XP) is the likely implementation change that removed the old "Banking" caps
 * Uncertain if the absence of Banking caps is related to my VIP access status. Have no free accounts to test with & not the time to make & test.Tcitpro 17:58, March 18, 2018‎
 * Like Shoemaker posted above, the cap still exists (I know because I'm almost always capped due to running all the reapers at level before leveling up). It's just that some ways of getting xp bypass the restriction. Namely, daily dice xp and sagas. It is entirely possible that your wizard got to level 17 using only those. Now I consider it unlikely that you didn't notice you weren't getting any more quest xp after you were capped, but such people exist. If you have screenshot proof (xp before quest completion and xp after quest completion - including your character's race), we can consider looking into it more and finding what's the other exception to the rule. Still though, the rule exists as I face it every day. &rArr; Faltout (Contribs • Message • Email ) 04:50, March 19, 2018 (EDT)
 * To be entirely fair, when an XP stone drives me over cap, I often run quite a few more quests before I notice that I'm not actually gaining XP (thank the gods that I still at least get reaper XP) especially when I hit those oddball optionals that give a few XP and the tail numbers change. There's just SO much XP in this game that it's not important anymore to worry about squeezing every last drop out of it and I often "run the compendium" and don't care what my XP level is at.  This is especially true on first or second life builds where I don't look at my XP at all, and is becoming the case even on my third+ life characters.    &#x1f45f;&thinsp;ShoeMaker (Contribs&thinsp;•&thinsp;Message&thinsp;•&thinsp;Email )&thinsp;&#x1f45f; 09:54, March 19, 2018 (EDT)
 * It's almost easier to phrase it as "a cap on (only) quest experience" - b/c it seems that all other types accrue just fine - wilderness, daily gems, anything/everything else - or am I missing something? &rArr; C-Hound (Contribs • Message • Email ) 23:27, March 19, 2018 (EDT)


 * I don't think that XP from wilderness adventure areas in general exceeds cap. -- &rArr; Cru121 (Contribs • Message • Email ) 03:10, March 20, 2018 (EDT)
 * Wildernesses do not exceed cap. Also, if we tried to change the term - the community at large wouldn't know what to look for.  They expect it to be XP cap, that's what it should stay.  &#x1f45f;&thinsp;ShoeMaker (Contribs&thinsp;•&thinsp;Message<span class="emailLink emailTechnical_13">&thinsp;•&thinsp;Email )&thinsp;&#x1f45f; 09:55, March 20, 2018 (EDT)

Reworking Tables
So I've been on the Wiki for a while, and while minor, the XP tables always grated on me by starting on 0 rather than 1 (Starting level value rather than first rank). I've reworked the tables to show ranks 1-4 & level up rather than level up & Ranks 1-4. Can the powers that be take a look?

I feel these tables "work" better to show the progression. &rArr; Christopher G Lewis (Contribs • Message • Email ) 11:37, March 29, 2018 (EDT)
 * I don't have any opinion about the column order. A user here seems like he did: https://ddowiki.com/index.php?title=Experience_points_after_Reincarnation%28s%29&diff=57765&oldid=56490 (I moved the XP to level chart to the top. No one cares about XP to rank, the xp to level is the more important info, should be on top.). So I guess there is a sentiment that xp to level should be the first column. What I believe is that the tables need to be able to be collapsed with the xp for the 1st life being expanded by default and the xp for 2nd and 3rd life collapsed by default under level 3 headings in the same page. What I'm saying is that Experience points after Reincarnation(s) should be merged here with collapsed tables. &rArr; Faltout (Contribs • Message • Email ) 12:46, March 29, 2018 (EDT)
 * If you look at the diff, the user moved an entire table to the bottom of the page and did not change the column order. As to the expand/collapse of the tables I agree that would be nice, but that would require some Wiki foo that is beyond me right now :-) &rArr; Christopher G Lewis (Contribs • Message • Email ) 14:32, March 29, 2018 (EDT)
 * I hate to see that work go for naught, but I have to disagree w/ the proposed change for 2 reasons: 1) As mentioned above, it puts ~the~ most-used column, "XP to Level Up", last - which is not handy. And 2) moreover, 4000 xp is now on the same row as "Level 1", etc. - which is simply not the case. When you hit XP for level, you jump to the next level - which is how the table works now. (As an aside, whenever you have a significant change to propose for a large table, do a shorter version of the table - Level 1-4, maybe. TIme saver.) &rArr; C-Hound (Contribs • Message • Email ) 15:30, March 29, 2018 (EDT)
 * So my thoughts on this were driven by the various tables in my old D&D books:-) where the typical table column progression is column based -> step1 | step2 | step3 | goal. I believe that these could work better if the "Per Rank" column wasn't there or was a mouse over in column 1. As for the amount of work, its all scripting and RegEx parsing so its pretty trivial. &rArr; Christopher G Lewis (Contribs • Message • Email ) 18:13, March 29, 2018 (EDT)
 * Take a look at this one User:Christopher_G_Lewis/XPTest Which removes the Per Rank column and moves it to a pop up &rArr; Christopher G Lewis (Contribs • Message • Email ) 18:37, March 29, 2018 (EDT)
 * I still don't have an opinion (all looks good to me), but I have to say that C-Hound's latest edit moved the "important" level up column a lot further down the page. Again, still looks good to me, but wanted to point out that it's contradictory to point #1 made above. As for point #2, one could say that when you reach 4000 xp you'll always be level 1 with the option to level up. So, in a way, 4000xp could belong to level 1 row AND the level up column. (For the last time, all versions look good to me :P ) &rArr; Faltout (Contribs • Message • Email ) 18:45, March 29, 2018 (EDT)
 * re moving the tables down: I agree that most turn to this page to see specific numbers. However, imo, too many articles assume the basics, and a Wiki article should aim at a true beginner, so start w/ an explanation of those basics. Hence, the intro re "What is Experience?" moving to "How does it work?" - and then tables. &rArr; C-Hound (Contribs • Message • Email ) 19:48, March 29, 2018 (EDT)
 * I totally understand. But since you moved them down, you voided your arguments against the new tables. So, why not let Christopher make the change that's been bugging him? &rArr; Faltout (Contribs • Message • Email ) 05:59, March 30, 2018 (EDT)
 * C-Hound - Agreed, but I was just working with the tables, not the content. The content on the pages will remain the same. &rArr; Christopher G Lewis (Contribs • Message • Email ) 19:51, March 29, 2018 (EDT)
 * @ Faltout - Moving the table does not change any observations pro or con re the table itself - the table is an independent object; where it is on the page is a separate issue. &rArr; C-Hound (Contribs • Message • Email ) 01:14, March 31, 2018 (EDT)


 * I agree with here, the column order should not put the most important information at the end.  Why does it need to be moved at all?  I haven't been convinced by any discussion here.  &#x1f45f;&thinsp;ShoeMaker (Contribs&thinsp;•&thinsp;Message<span class="emailLink emailTechnical_13">&thinsp;•&thinsp;Email )&thinsp;&#x1f45f; 17:41, May 16, 2018 (EDT)
 * Interesting - Since suggested making the change, and  didn't disagree, I made the change.  The tables with the last XP for the level on the next line have always seemed off to me.  And spreadsheets with row totals always have the total on the right - you never see a spreadsheet with the total of a row on the *next* line.  &rArr; Christopher G Lewis (Contribs • Message • Email )
 * That's not a total though. That's "ground 0" for the level. If you have that much XP, you're now effectively the next level.  Should be the first column.  &#x1f45f;&thinsp;ShoeMaker (Contribs&thinsp;•&thinsp;Message<span class="emailLink emailTechnical_13">&thinsp;•&thinsp;Email )&thinsp;&#x1f45f; 20:46, May 16, 2018 (EDT)

How XP is Calculated
I'm unsure what the answer is or I would add it myself. But it matters a lot when and how XP bonuses are applied. This page could really use the addition of that info.

For example, 1000 + 10% = 1100, + 10% = 1210. Whereas, 1000 + (10% + 10%) = 1200.

It's not so important with these small numbers, but 40,000 + 50% +25%, etc is significantly different in each case. &rArr; RocknRolla (Contribs • Message • Email ) 23:24, June 18, 2022 (EDT)


 * On the quest XP dialog all quest bonuses are related to the Base XP and add up. "Global" bonuses (like Pots, Guild, VIP) are added up and then multiply the XP received.
 * There are some strange effects when Bonus XP events are active. For example these are added up to quest optional objectives BEFORE the XP are assigned. Because of that it's a bad idea to check on XP rates for pages here when such events are active &rArr; Corgrind (Contribs • Message • Email ) 04:28, June 23, 2022 (EDT)