Talk:Item Namespace/Archive01

{{Post|1|ShoeMaker (Contributions &bull; Message) 09:25, April 11, 2012 (EDT)|How many times have you all complained about Category bleed for this or that.. Most of (99% by my observation) has come from using templates that were designed as {{PIC|Item description templates}} Category:Item description templates for use only on {{Named whatever... being used on loot pages or what have you that look great, but cause those loot pages to be categorized where they do not belong. Example Template:Stat is one of the biggest offenders; in this template I had made every attempt to prevent this bleed, and the best I could do up until the introduction of this namespace is:  {{#if:{{#pos:{{lc:{{PAGENAMEE}}}}|loot}}||{{#if:{{#pos:{{lc:{{PAGENAMEE}}}}|named}}||{{#if:{{#pos:{{lc:{{PAGENAMEE}}}}|reward}}||{{#if:{{#pos:{{lc:{{PAGENAMEE}}}}|named_items}}||{{#ifeq:{{lc:{{TALKSPACEE}}}}|{{lc:{{NAMESPACEE}}}}||{{#switch:{{lc:{{NAMESPACEE}}}}|category|file|forum|help|template|user=|#default= [[Category:{{ #ifeq:{{lc:{{{3}}}}}|exc| Exceptional ||}} {{#switch:{{lc:{{{1}}}}}


 * str|strength = Strength


 * dex|dexterity = Dexterity


 * con|constitution = Constitution


 * int|intelligence = Intelligence


 * wis|wisdom = Wisdom


 * cha|charisma = Charisma


 * ability = Ability


 * Stat (str, dex, con, int, wis, cha)

}} {{ #ifexpr:{{{2|0}}}< 0|{{#expr:0+{{{2|0}}}}}|+{{#expr:0+{{{2|0}}}}}}} items]] }}}}}}}}}}}}

This caught "most" of the bleed, but not all because of the way that transclusion works.. With the new namespace I/we will be able to go through the templates and add:  {{#ifeq:{{lc:{{NAMESPACE}}}}|item| [[Category:{{ #ifeq:{{lc:{{{3}}}}}|exc| Exceptional ||}} {{#switch:{{lc:{{{1}}}}} }} {{ #ifexpr:{{{2|0}}}< 0|{{#expr:0+{{{2|0}}}}}|+{{#expr:0+{{{2|0}}}}}}} items]] }}
 * str|strength = Strength
 * dex|dexterity = Dexterity
 * con|constitution = Constitution
 * int|intelligence = Intelligence
 * wis|wisdom = Wisdom
 * cha|charisma = Charisma
 * ability = Ability
 * Stat (str, dex, con, int, wis, cha)

This will catch ALL of the potential item bleed, because if the page is not in the item namespace, it doesn't get categorized. This will allow people to use Template:Stat to their discretion on loot pages and enchantment description pages to their hearts content and not place those things into Category:Ability +? where they do not belong. There are many enchantment templates that could and would be able to take GREAT advantage of this.

Furthermore, it would make it so that guy that is looking for all items with "Some Uber Enchantment" doesn't have to farm through 20 pages of "Some Uber Enchantment" description, "some quest" with "Some Uber Enchantment" loot, "some special event that can drop a "Some Uber Enchantment" potion.

Also, to answer Yoko's initial question, I currently feel that item is the only one that needs to be done where-as a great majority of the bleeding and issues comes/came from there. {{Face|cool}}}} {{post|0|Shade (Contributions &bull; Message) 10:56, April 11, 2012 (EDT)|

I'm against this. It's just yet another example of techs attempts to add complexity to things that should be as simple as possible. The pros just do not outweigh the cons for using namespaces in this manner. And yea, for such a massive change involving 2k+ pages, and nearly every other page on the site in some way too, you really should of discussed this with the majority of the active editors before diving in. Especially one like this which breaks our Naming policy, all changes to that should be discussed first.

Xevo's job is not to decide things like this. Here's here to help provide us the tools we need to get things done, so yea ofcorse hes not gona decline your request. It's the active editors that should decide major changing to the sites, and Xevo currently isnt one of them.

The cons just outweight any positive for the REAL users, that matter the most:

Cons:
 * Our category listings look horrible. Every item says "item:".. Treating the user like hes a moron that needs to be told every 0.0002millisecond that hes looking at items.. And this is something I put a lot of work in to simplify and clean up to look nice recently.
 * Adds a bunch of typing that should not be neccesarily.. Whenever we type out new items, we now would need to type Item:name, then pipe that crap out the name, more then doubling our worklolad there.. UGH.
 * Item pages already use a huge amount of transclusions. Having most of our links be a redirect {{=}} yet another transclusion. And the alternative of removing them would be worse - it would completely break searches, indexes and tons of other stuff.
 * Search will NOT work as smoothly. Clear evidence of this problem is available right now at turbines compendium. They use namespaces like crazy, so unless you hard-lock specify the type of article your searchign for, there search engine just plain doesnt work.
 * It will also break the nice DDO wiki:Firefox search plugin. I use that a lot, plus just typing in item names in the url bar works nice too as it is.. This will ruin that.
 * Reduces site uniformity. Just items get a namespace? What about quests? wilderness? challenges? etc.. Slipperly slope imo, soon enough we will have become the dreaded compendium we are meant to exist to be different from.
 * Another 2k +edits and site disruption when we decide it should be "Items" and not "Item".
 * Templates that use {{PAGENAME}} will look poor with the dumb item: suffix.

Pros:
 * You can use techs silly autocat templates disigned only for item pages, elsewhere. Maybe.
 * And even you can can - in many cases you should not. The most common place they get misused atm is in item indexes.. Item indexes tend to be long lists of items with short description players can quicly browse through. If we fill these with too many templates, the pages will get laggy and eventually break as we've seen happen on our Vaults of the Artificers loot page.
 * And being this is a change that reduces functionality for the users, but helps editors - it should have a low priority. We should work behind the scenes to improve the site, not in the face of it.

We need to make smart use of as few templates as possible, not destroy the sites structure in the name of using more pointless templates - we could easily achieve the same thing where we could want it with the simple longpopup template instead, and suffer a lot less performance issues.

So yea unless you get some support for this project tech, I dont recommend you proceeed. And from the discussion so far, no one seems to support it.

At the bare minimum you should of debugged this first before proceeding. The compendium at least doesn't have a huge mess in its categorys filled with namespace:article.. It has code to clip that in place. }} {{Post|2|ShoeMaker (Contributions &bull; Message) 11:48, April 11, 2012 (EDT)|Let's answer {{User|Shade|Shade's}} concerns.. Cons:
 * Our category listings look horrible. Every item says "item:".. Treating the user like hes a moron that needs to be told every 0.0002millisecond that hes looking at items.. And this is something I put a lot of work in to simplify and clean up to look nice recently.
 * I'll work on stripping the visual "Item:" namespace from the visible part of the C: structure. I find it a slight eyesore as-well, however, C: sorting is unaffected by it so other than the visual eyesore of it, there is no adverse effect.
 * Adds a bunch of typing that should not be neccesarily.. Whenever we type out new items, we now would need to type Item:name, then pipe that crap out the name, more then doubling our worklolad there.. UGH.
 * WRONG: I already thought that through. Simply use {{Item| }}, which coincidently is less work than including a link to a category on a page ( Category:
 * Item pages already use a huge amount of transclusions. Having most of our links be a redirect {{=}} yet another transclusion. And the alternative of removing them would be worse - it would completely break searches, indexes and tons of other stuff.
 * Transclusions are a normal part of a wiki. I do not see these tiny transclusions as being even slightly page breaking.
 * Search will NOT work as smoothly. Clear evidence of this problem is available right now at turbines compendium. They use namespaces like crazy, so unless you hard-lock specify the type of article your searchign for, there search engine just plain doesnt work.
 * Turbines compendium is not a fair comparison to DDOwiki.. The "Item:" namespace is included in the default search parameters, so unless you're implying that the users that visit this page are complete morons (Which according to your other posts, you do not), then they are not stupid enough to uncheck search Item: when they are looking for an item.
 * It will also break the nice DDO wiki:Firefox search plugin. I use that a lot, plus just typing in item names in the url bar works nice too as it is.. This will ruin that.
 * How exactly does it break the Firefox search? I use it constantly and it searches through Category:, DDO_wiki:, MediaWiki:, as-well-as *: without a care..
 * Reduces site uniformity. Just items get a namespace? What about quests? wilderness? challenges? etc.. Slipperly slope imo, soon enough we will have become the dreaded compendium we are meant to exist to be different from.
 * Items are pretty much the only thing that completely breaks template's ability to auto-cat and without that auto-cat you would have months of editing every item page placing them in all of the applicable categories.
 * Another 2k +edits and site disruption when we decide it should be "Items" and not "Item".
 * I originally suggested it should be Items: and Xevo set it to Item: Which is fine for me, each page is implicitly an item.  I see no reason to change it and if I had an issue with it, I would of had Xevo change it before starting to populate it.
 * Templates that use {{PAGENAME}} will look poor with the dumb item: suffix.
 * {{PAGENAME}} is not {{FULLPAGENAME}} and the Item: prefix is not displayed.

Pros:
 * You can use techs silly autocat templates disigned only for item pages, elsewhere. Maybe.
 * Without those auto-cats you would have months of manually typing in on every page the 5-20 categories it belongs in.
 * And even you can can - in many cases you should not. The most common place they get misused atm is in item indexes.. Item indexes tend to be long lists of items with short description players can quicly browse through. If we fill these with too many templates, the pages will get laggy and eventually break as we've seen happen on our Vaults of the Artificers loot page.
 * Ah-hah! A perfect place for an uniformly agreed upon policy to be set in place..
 * And being this is a change that reduces functionality for the users, but helps editors - it should have a low priority. We should work behind the scenes to improve the site, not in the face of it.
 * I see improved functionality for all, and I have been working as much behind the scenes of the visiting editors making sure to complete one chunk at a time before working on the next.. Like I said above, it is not enough to "just" move the pages, redirects and such need to be cleaned up.

I hope this this addresses most of your complaints {{User|Shade}}. I am totally willing to discuss any specific part further. -- {{Face|:D}}}}