User talk:Technical 13/2012/1

Thx for the welcome and advice. When someone says "this is not a word" as a blanket statement, I have a hard time not knee jerking when I know otherwise from personal experience. But I'll try to be more politik. C-Dog (messages, contributions)

I recommend looking up the word on dictionary.com or some such thing however it is appropriate, and linking the word to the page that backs it up.. You can see how I modified the edit, so that it still says that spell-checkers think it is wrong, but it is linked to the appropriate dictionary.com page for the word showing it is a correct alternative. I know that my spell-checker on FF tells me it is wrong, so it is not unexpected that everyone else's spell-checkers may as well. ShoeMaker 02:38, January 6, 2012 (EST)

Reverting Reincarnation[edit]

Really? You prefer a redundant table and double-screen wide text to something that is actually readable? Why? All the info was there, just the same. (And, if I may ask, why didn't you feel it approp to make a comment in your reversion as to that effect? I may be new to this wiki, but not to wikis. Usually any reversion is a disagreement, and disagreements invite explanation - or is that not the custom here?) C-Dog (messages, contributions)

I had to run before I could re-edit it in a more appropriate way. It has been done, if it still stretches your screen, please tell me what size screen and what resolution you are running at so I can adjust my settings and make it work for you as well with all of the seemingly redundant information. Thanx. ShoeMaker 23:46, January 5, 2012 (EST)

Ah - well, "no comment" seemed a bit... aggressive(?) even without trying to be. Anyway, I just used the default page header as a guide - once it was narrower than that and the text auto-wrapped, I called it good. C-Dog (messages, contributions)

So, my most recent edit doesn't stretch the page width or make it awkward for you? ShoeMaker 02:38, January 6, 2012 (EST)

I'd have to agree with C-Dog's initial changes TBH, and not just because the table is too wide for my browser. Having a column containing nothing but "yes" adds no value, and in fact only makes the table more difficult to read (hiding more useful information amongst noise). The mere presence of the columns implies that there are some rows which have "no" in them, which there are not. There's a reason why car comparison tables, for example, commonly don't include "number of wheels" or "steering wheel yes/no" columns! Raumkraut 05:29, January 6, 2012 (EST)

While that is all well and good, when there is a "Summary" table for people to look at, many are too in a rush or lazy to read the rest of the page. So, the fact that things are written in other places on the page, means absolutely nothing to them. C-Dog's initial changes also broke the table where it was missing borders and some other weird stuff was going on. I have revamped the table to be even shorter page width wise, and still include all of the information for the person that has a brain fart and asks, "Does lesser reincarnation reset my skill points?" ShoeMaker 08:43, January 6, 2012 (EST)

As a policy, I have to say that I find the "too lazy" argument to be less than compelling (and not just because I have no sympathy for the stupid) </jk!>. The same could be said of any information not laid out anywhere it might be relevant, and yet, at some point, redundancy has to be minimized in favor of presentation. Too much information, especially redundant, superfluous columns in a table, could be equally confusing. If a person is not finding "skills", then they look somewhere nearby - and (if laid out properly) there it is adjacent in a slightly diff but equally clear list of "things never/always changed" - or whatever.

Back on topic, yes, thanks - altho' it's still slightly wider than the default header/page, the current form solves the problem 99%, even tho' for me the combination of some of those columns is not exactly intuitive. But the info is there, and clearly so, and that's the bottom line. Nice solution.→ C-Dog January 20, 2012

Story Arcs[edit]

Sorry for dumping this in your lap, but I could not find any central comments page for the Admin/etc - pls forward if/as more approp. The Category:Story arcs page does not include any reference to "The Waterworks", which is also the common name for "The Lost Seekers" arc, which is a name rarely (if ever?) used in the community. Tried to edit in a redirected link, but that's beyond my wiki-fu. If we're going to serve the community (as opposed to dictate to it), we should, as a wiki, at least acknowledge the common usage, neh? C-Dog

I suppose... "The Waterworks" is actually the wilderness explorer area which houses most of "The Lost Seekers" Story-arc, not part of the actual story-arc itself.. I did however add it to the story-arc Category.. ShoeMaker 01:25, January 21, 2012 (EST)

Rename pages?[edit]

Is it possible to rename a page so the correct links in the wiki update, without having to change all the correct links or starting a new page with correct title and copying over the info ? Bladedge 15:58, February 23, 2012 (EST)

Yes it is and you have been promoted to System Operator with an excess of 1,000 useful wiki edits and now can do so.

ShoeMaker 17:45, February 23, 2012 (EST)

Named Weapon template update[edit]

I want to do an update but not sure how as I don't know exactly how the if statements work:

Want to set it up so all hand = are one-handed or two handed (simple for handwrap), for easy categorizing.. And instead dual cat light weapons into where they belong - both one-handed and light weapons.

To do that I would go if: type equals: Daggers Short Swords Light Picks Light Hammers Sickles Handaxes Kukris ,then Category:Light weapons.

Just not sure the proper code for that.→ Shade 01:59, February 24, 2012 (EST)

Using {{#switch:{{lc:{{{hand|}}}}}|handwrap|handwraps=simple|dagger|short sword|light pick|light hammer|sickle|handaxe|kukri=light weapon|#default=heavy weapon}} should accomplish what you want if I understand you correctly. mediawiki.org/ParserFunctions has more details on #switch if you need it. ShoeMaker 09:25, February 24, 2012 (EST)

mm not sure..

I want simply: if type = X, then put page in category:light weapons.. No changes would be required to individual pages, and it wouldnt impact page display at all (just the bottom category area), simply another category. The switch thing sounds like it might change page display or something.→ Shade 12:04, February 24, 2012 (EST)

Yes.. The exact line in the template would be:

 [[Category:{{#switch:{{lc:{{{type|}}}}}|handwrap|handwraps=Simple|dagger|short sword|light pick|light hammer|sickle|handaxe<!--
 remove this comment -->|kukri=Light weapons|#default=Heavy weapons}}]]

Ok thanks.. Update implemented. Didn't use the hvy weapon idea, as that has no gameplay impacts at all, unlike light weapons (qualify for +2 to hit in offhand).

Had to modify the code a bit to get it to work, lc switch didnt work (which shouldnt matter, as its case sensitive regardless due to how the weapon type auto-catting works).
Still has one minor issue: Very senstive to exact typing.. Even a single space after type= breaks it for two word weapon types.. Very odd as ive never seen the spaces cause issues for anything else, but yea just tested it, space breaks it.. See my last two revisions of Bravo's Sword to get a clearer picture of what i mean. Not sure how to fix it.→ Shade 15:58, February 24, 2012 (EST)

I'm assuming that you are talking about the multiple display of Root > DDO library > Items in each weapon's Cat: box? This is most likely due to each one of the subs bleeding from inclusion in C:Items.. Not sure off the top of my head how to fix that. I have however gone in and tweaked the switch statement to work the way you intended regardless of how |type= is entered on each individual weapon's page by stripping out any spaces and converting to all lower case before testing in the #switch command. ShoeMaker 16:58, February 24, 2012 (EST)

Undelete request[edit]

You broke a lot of pages deleting templates bladedge flagged as unused, that weren't unused, please undelete them as they are still in use:

Template:itemshield (breaks Tower Shield among others, creating hundreds of broken links around the wiki)
Template:itemarmor (breaks Full Plate among others, creating hundreds of broken links around the wiki)
Template:itemwand (just breaks a few basic wand pages, not a big deal, but stll broken pages aren't good)→ Shade 10:42, February 28, 2012 (EST)

I've sent a request to Xevo (Contribs • Message • Email) as to why it does not seem that I can undelete pages. I'm awaiting a response. However, I did not simply delete them because there was a request for them to be deleted. I deleted them because they are near duplicate templates to Template:Unique shield, Template:Unique armor, and Template:Eternal wand which are the correct templates to use. I had assumed (Yes, my mistake) that since they where flagged for deletion, the What links here had been gone through and anything of any use sent to a more appropriate place, I see this was not the case. As soon as I here back from Xevo about the undeletion process, I will put those templates back on a temporary basis so that all of the pages that link to them can be moved to the proper templates or revamped as the case may be. ShoeMaker 05:59, February 29, 2012 (EST)

Nah they are the proper templates for the pages that use them imo - they aren't for "named" or "unique" items, they are for the basic un-named versions. We don't need the bigger flashier template that includes held images/etc.. As they are simply there for a quick reference on the base stats - actaul shown model will vary with random/named loot that anyone would be using. And in fact we wouldn't want to to use it, as it would auto categorize them into the standard categories, and I've been fixing those templats to use a "Basic" prefix, to sort them into the more appropriate categories.. Would be difficult, and messy to do on the named X templates.

I mean they could be renamed to match up with the Base weapon template, which we use for basic weaponry.. So Base armor, Base shield, etc.. But other then the name, they served the same functionality.

I'll check the waybackmachine or google cache to see if they have copies I can restore. → Shade 12:11, February 29, 2012 (EST)

_loot vs _reward items category bleeding[edit]

Trying to fix a long standing category bug with that I think is in all the named X templates:

When endreward = exists.. We'd end up with both the valid: xx reward items category, and an invalid duplicate: xx loot.. If just chest was filled, we'd properly just get xxx loot. With my fix I lost the _ loot in that huge confusing location: field code.. So I tried to do it seperately at the bottom in the categories area.

So what should happen:
If endreward= or turnin= exists with any value (or preferably, with a nonblank value), then category:X reward items - but NOT x loot If chest= exists with any value, then category:x loot.

Your last edit doesn't seem to have fixed the issue.

PS: Category updates show up instantly in the horizontal Categories: Breakdown.. But requie a server cache refresh to popular the verticle breakdown below that.. So just the check the first line to see if the fixed worked.. I've been checking:

Sword of Shadow - for a simple chest = (broke)

and

Guardian's Dagger for - end reward =(working fine atm)

PS: For unusual items which fit both categories, I'd recommend editors use chest = .. and end up with _loot.. Then manually add the reward category. Would avoid auto-catting this as it's a very rare occurrence - very few items overlap locations like that, and it's less confusing for the end editor to understand, so will avoid further issues in the future. Shade 14:26, March 4, 2012 (EST)

I've been wanting to fix that section myself, and with Update 13's ability to pick named loot on very third completion (As is my understanding), there will be even more occurrences of an item being both Chest and End Reward loot... How do you suggest we deal with this? I personally think it should be easier to be able to put the item in both cats. ShoeMaker 15:24, March 4, 2012 (EST)

Actually U13 did not change any items in this regard. All items that previously appeared in chests, are not suddenly on end rewards now.. All the overall change did was increase the drop rate from 50% to 100% on third completion - only for items which were already appearing on the end rewards.. So no changes there. (A commonly confused thing with the new change)

There are a couple of unique cases such as the ion stones for dreaming dark.. But technically even those already appeared on end reward lists, as they were random loot.

Personally I'd prefer just to auto cat the "X loot" category, as thats by far the more common one (something like 100 to 1 ratio), and do the end reward manually. I know you like templates and automated stuff, but I just don't see it working cleanly no matter how well you code it.. As there are several special cases where the location name wont equal the end reward area name, and other more complex issues, so doing it manually would be more appropriate, and easier for most mere mortals creating item pages in the future. Shade 16:18, March 4, 2012 (EST)

I believe I have everything all set to correctly auto-cat.. Let me know if you find any specific issues and I'll find a fix.. With the epic items, by adding |quest = <Quest Name> it should auto-cat those too.
I used:

Sword of Shadow - for a simple chest
Epic Sword of Shadow - For an epic item
Guardian's Dagger - for an end reward ShoeMaker 16:59, March 4, 2012 (EST)

Messing with break tags?[edit]

What's the purpose of your bot edits to change all the tags?

You know, is a recognized wikitext function.. The software automatically translate it into the proper .

I've ran a diff on the page source of this page: Stormreach Chronicle 1.. Zero difference after your edits.

So essentially all your accomplishing by this is increases the size of the wikiext, thus wasting server space as far as I can tell. But maybe im missing something.

edit: Actually the diff did have some minor differences: revision id obviously, and this: </script></body></html> vs </script></body></html>

The slower load was the new version you edited.. Not sure it has any real impact on server performance, but certainly isn't helping it.→ Shade 23:27, March 9, 2012 (EST)

I'm trying to make a move for our pages to conform to HTML strict.dtd which requires all tags to be closed. ShoeMaker 23:39, March 9, 2012 (EST)

Well yea thats my point..

In terms of break tags, they already do.

By editing the wikiext, you are not having any impact on the HTML at all in this case. Infact if you review some of your edits, youll see that the server infact rejected them as dummy edits, because it detected they had no effect.

and HTML 4.01 Strict DTD simply doesn't apply to wikitext/wikiext. I mean maybe there might be some cases where certain wikitext/wikiext functions break that specification, but br isn't one of them, it's hanlded automatically per spec.

To put it another way: What your doing is essentially the as say changing wikitext '''text'''' (bold) to html text .. Once the page is previewed or saved, the html source will read text regardless.. I's a function of the software and really it's primary intended purpose - to make editing easier/faster.

If anything to me it seems preferable to use the wikitext language whenever ideal, as it tends to look cleaner, and is generally easier to understand for newbies trying to update pages. If we instead coded the whole wiki in pure html, well.. We'd probably have a lot less contributors heh.→ Shade 00:00, March 10, 2012 (EST)

Quote:
Originally Posted by www.w3schools.com <br> or <br /> In XHTML, XML, elements with no end tag (closing tag) are not allowed. Even if <br> works in all browsers, writing <br />instead works better in XHTML and XML applications.

^^^ Says even if works, is better and safer.. I can see HTML 5 being short-lived and everything moving to XHTML / XML... So, call it a per-emptive strike if you will. ShoeMaker 00:24, March 10, 2012 (EST)

I don't know how you can't get this..Seems like a simple concept.

Wikitext is NOT html. is treated as wikitext by the edit box, not html. Simple as that. Your trying to apply HTML standards to wikitext, it is illogical. Your striking at code that defies what your trying to do. As I said a few times.. br tags when placed in wikitext are automatically corrected to the standards your trying for anyways, regardless of how they are typed in. Your edits simply are not having any impact on the html of the site whatsoever.

One last try: To put it another way: Not a single html single page on ddowiki.com contains the less standard . Never has, never will. It's fully standards complient in that regard, as all wiki's are. It's not possible to do it incorrectly no matter what.→ Shade 05:30, March 11, 2012 (EDT)

There is a default module that cleans up all HTML code it's called "HTML Tidy" and cleans up loads of tags and ending troubles.

We'll have to see which format is forced the standard by editing software, it's not like we have a choice.→ Neouni 10:53, March 12, 2012 (EDT)

Bot[edit]

Re your bot fixing the weapon pages: Seems like it should be able.. Seem other bots do similar things, perhaps they use different software but it seems like a fairly trivial task. I mean yea it can't determine what the correct hand/class is if they are 100% wrong.. But it doesnt need too, somewhere over 95% of the invalid pages are valid, for the old version of the template.. EG: they are simply have the correct entry plus weapon, or weapons (in the case of class).. So your bot needs only to go to those lines, and replace those words with deletes - much the same as you set the template to do automatically in the past. It might not work on every page, but i'd likely catch the huge majority, and the the few remaining would be much easier handled manually. Shade 05:30, March 11, 2012 (EDT)

It's not so much that the bot can't do it. It is more that I am not familiar with the bot enough to make it do that, and AutoWikiBrowser was designed for Wikipedia (and associated other wikis) and does not like to cooperate. I have not found a way to customize it more towards ddowiki needs, nor am I sure I will be able to.. I am on the hunt for a better / easier to use bot. If I do not find one in the next year or so, I may just say screw it and try to code my own for the Xevo based wikis (Yes, there is more than one). ShoeMaker 11:24, March 11, 2012 (EDT)

Template:skill[edit]

I took care of all the problems with the template and the quests. All that's left are Named Chest/Raid/Quest loot/rewards, and Update 5, 7, and 8 items. The bot hopefully (hopefully...) can take care of those large pages Yawgmoth 00:20, March 14, 2012 (EDT)

Working on it as we speak.. I've had it putting Template:Bind, Template:Starter, converting to , and Template:Feather Falling in place where appropriate at the same time.. It's not supposed to be changing any of the shorthand (Balance to bal) unless the word is followed by a | and is inside of a template (Suppose to be only if inside Template:Skill(s), but that is not seemingly working as intended). may have to wait until it is done to fix things like what is happening with ToD PoHB.. ShoeMaker 00:27, March 14, 2012 (EDT)

Well, in the case of ToD, if you'll notice, [[Path of Harmonious Balance|Light Monk]] it does contain a |, so I think that's whats confusing the bot. I'm not entirely sure how the bot works, but if you could tell it to replace {{skills|balance| , with skills Yawgmoth 00:38, March 14, 2012 (EDT)

I've tried setting to only replace if |balance| but that confuses it.. If I try to set it to {{skills|balance| it doesn't recognize them at all, same with {{skill|balance|.. I'll just have to check the list of redlinks and compare it to my bot edits tomorrow afternoon during my 6 hour lunch break at school. ShoeMaker 00:47, March 14, 2012 (EDT)

Problems[edit]

I'm not sure if its something your doing, or the actual site problems, but I've gotten error messages/Service Not Available: DDOwiki is experiencing troubles (or something like that) and mysql errors when trying to: View Recent Changes. View any "logged in" features/special pages. bring up the edit box. Yawgmoth 21:04, March 17, 2012 (EDT)

That was due to the company that Xevo (Contribs • Message • Email) pays to host the site took had to move it to another server which took it off-line intermittently during that process. I hope they are done, and you should have no further issues. Xevo actually emailed me pre-emptively to tell me the site was coming down for it so I wouldn't panic and email him about it. LOL

ShoeMaker 21:37, March 17, 2012 (EDT)

Auto promotion policies[edit]

I think your auto promotion policies for super user+ are a far too simple and exploitable:

For ddowikivip, 100 edits autopromote is fine, as its mainly just the capcha, which is nice to get.
For anything higher, I dont think it should be so simple X edits and there you go.. As a malicious user could easily make X quick/easy edits and get into a position where he could cause a lot of harm. I mean 500 edits and bam your an admin (well bearaucrat by ur rules, which can make itself an admin easily)? Seems a bit silly to give so much power so easily. Someone could easily make a quick 500 small edits over a cpl days, then perma ban all other admins and mass delete pages, cause other massive trouble with that power. It really simply should not be based on editcount at all. Yokos DDO wiki:Administration guideline promotion guideline makes more sense - 2.. Case by case, someone who deserves the extra privilages, and 2 or more sysops agree. Seems fine especially now were we have quite a few active sysops already.
Hell you even listed the max rank steward as just an edit count to get. Who should get that upmost of responsibilities should be at the sole descretion of Xevo or Yoko, no one else. As that title should hold some responsbility as it gives you every privilage. It should be decided on a case by case basis, for users interested in it that are active and want the responbilities it holds, not so much based on edits. Tho a minimum req of X amount doesnt hurt. I mean I have over that, but don't really want the responsbility as I think Yoko and Xevo are doing a fine job in that regards already.
Even superuser shouldn't be an auto promote... As again, the responsiblity - some users simply wont want it. It mainly gives you the patrol/rollback ability.. Which sort of assumes your qualified to decide which edits are worthy for the wiki and which are not.. Which again should be looked at a case by case basis, with 2 sysops agreeing, not automatic for some small edit count.

Anyways just my opinion.. Think they should all be cleared cept vip, and just go based on Yokos admin guidelines for further promotion.

re: Demotion: 1 year inactive seems fine. Though the minimum rank should be vip.. Noticed you demoting some people down to zero, if they come back and have to deal with capcha, that wont be a welcomed return.

Also on the topic if bans: I think we should decide a policy on that too. Permabanning IPs and accountname of spammers seems a bit harsh.. As spambots simply automatically rotate ips, make 1 account and make 1-2 edits then stop. They dont attempt to return or make lots of edits anyways.. So permanent seems to be just detrimental on our end, as legit users may eventually end up with those IPs. 6-12months seems more appropriate. And the accountnames themselves it would be wishe to simply delete, to make available to legit users if possible (i know most of them are weird names, but some might be of interest). Plus we might get the odd false positive and ban someone who isnt a spambot but simply made a mistake, they would deserve a 2nd chance. → Shade 05:01, March 18, 2012 (EDT)

What I put are a draft intended to be expanded and worked on, not a set in stone this is how we do it.... Which is why this is awesome feedback Shade. The promotion and demotion things I put in are guidelines to get started. I had thought that I had put for anyone looking for greater than VIP that it had to be approved by sysops with a majority vote if request was contested?

I'm trying to get Xevo (Contribs • Message • Email) to merge some of the groups and reset privileges differently for others, such as merging bureaucrat into sysop, and then possibly using bureaucrat for demoted sysops with the basic functions that can't hurt anything if they get "upset" because they were demoted for pissing on someones page so-to-speak but still the abilities to not have any major restrictions and easily get back up to sysop.
As a side note, until the other day, Yoko didn't even have Steward privileges, I had to give it to him.

They actually are all based on what I could remember of Yoko's guidelines and I got too tired by the time I saw some of the other tidbits to go back and adjust them all more. Figured no-one would get promoted while I slept.

Would you mind building me a list of how you think the promotion/demotion chains should go. Those guidelines are certainly open to discussion and change. I want to have all the sysops views before upgrading. The people I demoted to nothing, haven't made an edit on the wiki in more than 3 years, and I do not expect to see them back, which is one of the reasons I'm working on the user groups merger and setting more efficient groups.

I've noticed some inconsistencies in the current policy in regards to who can promote and demote, and what functions each group gets and have been working with Xevo to fix things that just do not look right.

I've noticed Wikipedia has the option to usurp a user-name that hasn't been used in xx days, and am considering have Xevo add that capability to this wiki.
Click here to see an example of this feature I stumbled across..

As far as spambots go, we def need a better system for dealing with them.
As a final note (Yes, I'm scatterbrained this morning and my post goes all over the place with thoughts, deal with it .), I hope to be posting a more functional user group configuration table to my "To Do List" user tab and sending Xevo (Contribs • Message • Email) an email to see if he can move some privileges around to match it. ShoeMaker 11:17, March 18, 2012 (EDT)